Canadian Heritage Committee on April 22nd, 2015

[Brian Ray, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair, and fellow committee members. Thank you for the opportunity to appear today.

My name is Brian Ray. I am president of Branch 114, Oakville, Ontario.

I would respectfully request that when the minutes of this meeting are published, the words “veteran”, “branch”, and “member” or “membership” be capitalized, please. There is such a motion within the Oakville Town Council as such, as an act of respect to those who fought for the freedoms we enjoy today.

The Royal Canadian Legion's act of remembrance from the Ritual and Insignia Manual, which is part of our opening ceremony for every meeting within the Legion, has only the chairman stating:

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

All members present recite in unison:

We will remember them.

That is what we do Remembrance Day and we do not need any directive from Dominion Command to remember. It is a day of remembrance and reflection, not for politicking.

Factually, Remembrance Day is held at the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month at the national cenotaph and every cenotaph within our great country respective of time zones. It is not at the 11th minute as suggested by a previous speaker.

At last evening's meeting, where I was chair of the branch general meeting, I informed the membership I would be appearing here today and asked for the opinions of the veterans, those who served Her Majesty. There were six present. One was with the British Army from 1953 to 1955, two were reservists, one with NATO, one who saw no theatre, and one who is still serving, a lieutenant-colonel. These are real people, not Facebook people, that I was speaking to last night.

The consensus was that they did not want Remembrance Day to be lost as a day at the mall and they wanted students to be in schools remembering. The most compelling comment was from the NATO veteran who wanted to ensure the two minutes silence was observed. It undoubtedly would be lost with people's busy schedules and a day off work in my opinion, and exhibit a lack of respect to the fallen and those who remain.

The mission statement from Ontario Command's website focuses on remembering those who gave their lives for freedom, and looking after the needs of veterans, their dependents, and those still serving. The Legion does this by accepting donations to the poppy fund. We do not sell them. We offer them freely and someone may make a donation of any size they choose.

It commences on the last Friday of October and runs through until November 11. Those funds are strictly controlled as to how they may be distributed.

If November 11 were to become a national holiday, it could mean one less day of donations to support those veterans. I've heard of the debate between the national and statutory holiday, and I've clearly heard more of it today, and whether it would enshrine a day off work. However, this is wordplay. Perception is reality and if the public hears of a recognized national holiday they expect a day off work with pay.

I'm going to speak off the cuff now. Our cousins to the south recognize Memorial Day, which occurs the weekend after Victoria Day for us on the long weekend. What do they do? They have a car race. The Indianapolis 500 is held on Sunday of their Memorial Day weekend. What memories does that create?

You also have the students who are ingrained with remembering about how the Canadians liberated Holland 70 years ago. They do that by having them in school and teaching it to them, not having a day off.

With these points in mind, I would respectfully urge you to reject Bill C-597.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ray.

We're now going to go by video conference to Kitchener, Ontario, to hear from Mr. Harry Watts.

Welcome. You have the floor for up to eight minutes, sir.

[Harry Watts, As an Individual]

Thank you very much.

My name is Harry Watts and I'm not a member of any of the Legions, not because I don't support them but because when I was working I never had time to be what I would call a good member and take part in things. When I retired I became involved with the Memory Project, so I've become a speaker taking the story to the young people in the schools about what the veterans did.

I try to do one school a day, but on Remembrance Day I always do two because they want to hear the stories and they want to know what it's all about. At one school in particular, there were 15-year-old and 16-year-old grade nine students who didn't want to go to school. They had truancy problems. I would go and take them to the cenotaph for 11 o'clock, and we would stand as a group to know what was going on and what it was all about. Then I would go back to the school and talk to the young people, have lunch with them, and they would know that it was a day of remembrance. It was a day when you took your two minutes of silence and remembered that way. There are so many things that I disagree with about having a national holiday. As they said, the first thing you have to do is have a parade, you have to get the fire trucks out, and maybe a few veterans riding on the trucks or something, but it's not the same. It's those few minutes of silence.

I had a job where I travelled through Ontario for several years and wherever I was, whatever small village, I could always find a spot where Remembrance Day was being observed and I would take my few minutes of remembrance for those who didn't come home. It's just such a special moment for people to observe and remember.

I think of the first Remembrance Day of 1919, which happened in Manchester in England. At 11 o'clock two old soldiers—well, they weren't too old, I guess, at that time—all of a sudden realized what time it was and they just came to attention on the sidewalk, and the next thing you knew, a truck stopped, and the teamsters stopped, and everybody stopped for just two minutes.

That's where it all comes from and that's the way it should be. If we could just get two minutes of silence even in the stores.... A few years ago I was in one of the big malls and it just happened to be that time of the day, and a few minutes before 11 o'clock there was some jazz music being played. I found the manager and suggested that maybe at 11 o'clock they could just shut it down. It's funny because that same year a chap wrote A Pittance of Time. It's funny that we were both on the same wavelength. He wrote a piece of music to go with that.

That's all it is. It's just a pittance of time but it's so important for our young people to remember a pittance of time because we're not going to be around forever. I was in two schools two weeks ago just answering questions from young people, so it isn't just on Remembrance Day that they want to know what we did, why we did it, and how we did it, but Remembrance Day is that special day. It's such an emotional day for me and for the young people. I wouldn't want to see it enacted as a holiday. It would lose the whole emotional meaning of what Remembrance Day is all about.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you very much, Mr. Watts.

We're going to move to the questions, but with the help of Madam clerk, and for the benefit of members, I just want to read a specific part of the rules for committees. I think it will clarify why I made the rulings that I did. It says:

There are no specific rules governing the nature of questions which may be put to witnesses appearing before committees, beyond the general requirement of relevance to the issue before the committee. Witnesses must answer all questions which the committee puts to them. A witness may object to a question asked by an individual committee member. However, if the committee agrees that the question be put to the witness, he or she is obliged to reply.

I think that covers the questions in terms of those points of order.

On that note, we will now move to the questions and we will start with Mr. Young for seven minutes.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, both for your time and to Mr. Ray for travelling the great distance today.

Mr. Ray, I'd like to read you some comments regarding this bill and then ask you a question, if I may.

This is from a debate in the House on the bill. There's a reference that says it's an act to make Remembrance Day a national statutory holiday. There's another reference that says it would have “the same legal status as Victoria Day and Canada Day, the two legal holidays listed in the Holidays Act.” It says, “I am far from the first to suggest making Remembrance Day a national statutory holiday.” It says, “Canadians I have spoken with wish to be able to attend ceremonies to pay their respects”, in other words, refers to a day off.

It says, “There are also arguments against making Remembrance Day a national statutory holiday”, and then it says, “Some believe productivity would increase if their staff had another day off.” There's a reference made to a CEO who said, “Consumers only have so much money to spend. If they cannot spend it today, they will spend it tomorrow”. That refers to a day where the stores are closed, otherwise known as a holiday.

It says, “ The most compelling argument I have heard for not making November 11 a statutory holiday is that kids should be in school to observe services.” It says, “ I am also drawn to what happens here in Ontario, where it is not a statutory holiday, though it used to be”. There's a reference to a ceremony in Scarborough, where a service is held on the Sunday night before November 11, and once again in reference to it being a holiday. Then there's a reference that says “Just as the decision whether to observe November 11 as a holiday rests with the provinces, so does the curriculum.”

The puzzle, I think, could be answered in further comments from the same debate. Here's what it says:

The federal government passed a bill to make it a holiday within federal jurisdiction, and all 50 states passed their own bills so that its application is universal across the United States of America. We can achieve the same here in Canada. A united voice from Parliament would be a big encouragement in that regard, while still respecting each province's ability to choose for itself.

There's one other reference here at the end, “[I]t is time to make November 11, Remembrance Day, a national statutory holiday.“

Now, the words that I just read to you from the debate were all made by Mr. Harris who conceived and presented this bill in the House.

What does this speech tell you about the intent of Mr. Harris with regard to this bill?

[Brian Ray]

To me personally, and clearly to the people from Dominion Command who have spoken to it as well, it would now enshrine a day off with pay. That's what that would lead me to believe.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Would it lead you to believe that it would be a holiday where businesses are closed?

[Brian Ray]

Yes, and when the questions were put to the membership, as said by the other members from Dominion Command, that was the impression they were also under.

Further, at my branch meeting last night, Tuesday night.... But on Monday night I chaired an election at the other branch in Oakville, Branch 486, Chris Vokes and I asked that question while there was a count. I asked it with no preamble, and the assumption was that it would be a day off with pay. Naturally, the people who were there—there were 66 people there representing their branches and there were six guests, five of us and one other caretaker—probably two thirds to one third were for the national holiday. But these people are all retired. Every day is Saturday to them, so it wouldn't make any difference.

Further, when I looked at the one third who were for not recognizing it as a national holiday, those were the veterans.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

So the veterans there were against making it a day off with pay as a national holiday.

[Brian Ray]

That is correct. In my opinion, yes.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Okay, Mr. Ray. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but I wanted to share it with the committee and ask you a question as well.

At St. Dominic Elementary School in Oakville, a Catholic elementary school, there's a gifted teacher named John MacPhail and under his leadership the children began writing letters to the parents of Canadian veterans who had lost their lives in the service of Canada, our fallen soldiers.

The children conceived the Bronte Veterans Garden, and I want to quote what their purpose was: a visible and lasting tribute to Canadian veterans and their families. They came up with this idea after the visit of Carol Mitchell, who is a mother of a fallen Canadian soldier, and I have to say this connection is beautiful to behold. It's so touching and it's so important. The relationships that inspired this action and the conception of the garden happened in school. They happened when the children were in school while this mother visited them in school, and this is what I've heard from veterans.

Would you care to expand on what you and the other veterans do on Remembrance Day in the schools to inspire children to understand the cost of freedom?

[Brian Ray]

We actually, at Branch 114, Oakville, do not go out to the schools on November 11. We would send some of our veterans out to the schools in advance of that, when they're asked to speak. When we're doing our ceremony on that day, it starts very early. We're setting up the wreaths, making sure the town is setting up their sound equipment for us correctly. There are a lot of things to do. We don't have time to be going to them on that day, November 11, but we could be prepared to send some of our veterans, once they've recognized the day, in the afternoon.

One of the other things we did recently in the afternoon was at one of the larger Catholic churches in Oakville, where we were asked to be a colour party at an all-faith musical event. I was told by some of the people in the congregation that the colour party is what made that musical event worthwhile to them.

[Terence Young, Conservative, Oakville, ON]

Thank you.

Could you comment on why you think the opinions of the veterans with regard to how Canadians remember their sacrifices are the most important to listen to, why this group's opinions are the most important?

[Brian Ray]

I would say those are the people who have experienced the fears of war and those are the ones who need to be listened to in regard to the decision on this bill. You want to hear from the veterans, not just the general public and the politicians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you.

We'll move to Mr. Harris now, for seven minutes.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you very much, and thank you to Mr. Young for repeating some sections from my speech in the House, where I did, in fact, clearly outline that the power to create this day off rested with the provinces, and that the education the kids receive rests within that provincial curriculum. That's certainly not something that I would contest to change. This is how the division of powers is laid out in our constitution, and the provinces do get to decide which days are and aren't off.

Now, Comrade Ray, I notice, and it's quite sensible, that you don't send folks from the Legion out to the schools on Remembrance Day because you have a lot to accomplish on that day. That actually was another one of the arguments I made in my speech, that I thought there would be a greater opportunity for more veterans to be in schools at the schools' ceremonies if the ceremonies took place the last school day before Remembrance Day. As you just mentioned, you do send people out beforehand.

Remembrance Day itself is a solemn occasion, but wouldn't you agree that it should definitely not be the only day on which the kids learn about the tragedies of war?

[Brian Ray]

It's clearly not the only day, no. But November 11 is the day that is most significant to our veterans, when they can come back to their branch. As a branch president, I invite everybody who attends the cenotaph on Trafalgar Road, just north of Lakeshore, back to the branch and offer them a free drink, if they choose to come back. There are a number who do, and they have a lot to say to each other.

But I can tell you, when I held the ceremony last year, I was speaking off the cuff and it was important to me that.... Help me out here; you folks are the politicians. I can't remember his name right now, I'm just drawing a blank, but he said that bad things will happen if good men do nothing.

[A voice]

It's Edmund Burke.

[Brian Ray]

Thank you. The average politician.... I actually made that quote at our branch on November 11 last year. My point was that we had a hall full of good men and women in that facility, and they must not sit back but get back to their politicians and demand some security for our veterans and for Canadians.

I was overwhelmed by the extra coverage that the Halton police tactical services gave us for our ceremonies in both Bronte and Oakville—men with AK-47s, plainclothes people with sniffer dogs walking through the crowd. It was exceptional. Unfortunately, that was because of the two lives we lost previously in October.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

The tragic events of last fall certainly reverberated through Parliament as well.

Now, I wanted to also just follow up because you talked about Remembrance Day being a national holiday. Would it surprise you to know that it is in fact already a national holiday, and that the Holidays Act does list Canada Day, Victoria Day, and Remembrance Day? But it lists both Canada Day and Victoria Day as legal holidays and Remembrance Day as just a holiday.

[Brian Ray]

This is just surprising but I already commented on it. This is politicking and this is wordplay, and I'm going to offer you this without an expletive.

That's all that is.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

It's, I think, a mistake that was made in 1972. Adding the word “legal” to Remembrance Day simply gives it the same status as the other two holidays without in fact creating a day off.

But I wanted to move on to Mr. Watts. You spoke a great deal about teaching kids in school. I would argue that teaching the next generation is probably the most important act of remembrance that any of us can engage in to make sure that future generations understand the tragic sacrifices that have been made. You mentioned having gone into schools a couple of weeks ago and teaching kids about that. Do you think that if school ceremonies took place the day before Remembrance Day that more veterans might have the opportunity to both go into schools and to attend their local cenotaph ceremonies?

[Harry Watts]

Well, funnily, Remembrance Day to me.... I get requests from schools nine months of the year. But in November, of course, Remembrance week is always special, and several times I'm asked to go to an assembly in the morning. I'm not a Catholic, but I was asked to open a Catholic assembly one morning. It's really not just for the kids. It's the idea of.... It's not disrespect, but people just go about their business, to shopping malls and everything else, when maybe just two minutes of silence, just a pittance of time to show some respect....

I wish I could show you the notes and the poetry from these young people. I just published a wonderful book of poetry that has been given to me over the past 20 years. I've already given away 200 of them. I've read it many times and I still find it very difficult to read it and not shed a little tear with what these young people got from the message I brought to them. I guess I'm thinking about that special two minutes of silence to show respect and honour for those who didn't come home. That's really, I guess, the long story.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gord Brown]

Thank you, Mr. Harris.

We're going to move to Mr. Valeriote. You have seven minutes.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Ray and Mr. Watts, for attending today.

I come from Guelph. I'm on the veterans committee. While it may not rival the commemorations in Oakville or Bronte or Kitchener, we also celebrate Remembrance Day quite vigorously in Guelph. We start by meeting at Colonel John McCrae's home in Guelph on Water Street, and then we move to the IODE statue beside our train station and speak there. Then several thousand people gather at the Sleeman Centre and we commemorate there, including the firing of guns, speeches, wonderful music from our local orchestra, marching to colours, everyone from the.... If it wasn't for the members of the Legion in Guelph, Colonel John McCrae Branch, it wouldn't happen. It's really that simple.

So we are grateful to the members of the Legion and everyone who's served. I've said this before, no amount of commemoration will adequately honour the sacrifices that have been made, and no amount of compensation, frankly, could properly compensate those who died and those who came back to tell their stories.

When this bill came out, the first thing I did was I went to Mr. Harris and I asked if this created a statutory holiday. He said, no, and asked why. I said I was going to be honest, the people in Guelph don't want a statutory holiday. Most of the people I talked to didn't want it to be a statutory holiday, meaning schools and businesses are closed. All for the same reasons you folks have cited today.

Having said that, I checked with the library. The Library of Parliament is very kind in helping parliamentarians like us around the table who don't always understand words that are written in law. They said the Holidays Act does not entitle employees to a day off with pay, even with the use of the word “legal”.

I'm as confounded by that as you are, but I understood that it doesn't create a statutory holiday. So I went back to the people I'd spoken to who don't want a statutory holiday and I asked how they felt if it didn't create a statutory holiday. They said that made sense.

You were here, Mr. Ray—I know Mr. Watts wasn't—when Wilma McNeill spoke earlier today. On Monday, Michael Blais from the Canadian Veterans Advocacy spoke, and he said that what's important to them in this legislation is that Remembrance Day is never considered a lesser national holiday than Victoria Day or Canada Day, which is in the legislation.

This elevates it not to a statutory holiday but to a day of recognition as important as Thanksgiving and Victoria Day, which I think it deserves, if not more.

Having said that as parliamentarians, knowing that it's not going to be a statutory holiday, we will elevate the day to be as important as Thanksgiving and Victoria Day. Other provinces and territories have statutory holidays because they make the law on that, but interestingly I've been advised by the Library of Parliament that it's not a statutory holiday in Quebec, Ontario, Nova Scotia, or Manitoba. It's up to those provinces to decide whether schools and businesses are closed, so far they've done other things.

Knowing what you know now that we could elevate this to a holiday of recognition, not of days off work, don't you think it behooves us to honour our veterans and elevate that day so it has the same profile legislatively without giving people a day off work or school? I'm not trying to wordsmith and I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I just feel compelled to say it deserves that. Others have told me that, knowing no day off school or work.

Now, Mr. Watts, can I ask you and then I'll ask Mr. Ray what your response would be?