Evidence of meeting #13 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was magazine.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Matthew Holmes  President and Chief Executive Officer, Magazines Canada
Douglas Knight  Board Chair, Magazines Canada
Luke Smith  Membership Coordinator, National Campus and Community Radio Association

9:15 a.m.

Board Chair, Magazines Canada

Douglas Knight

That's a very good question, this notion of magazines, as a group, lasting for a certain number of years, with some closing and new ones starting up. People are always starting new magazines, and occasionally magazines fold.

As Matthew said in his introductory remarks, we have about 2,000 magazines in Canada, about 30% more than we had in 2000. There's a continued interest. Magazines are loved by readers. We actually publish the largest magazine in Saskatchewan, by the way, CAA Magazine.

There is a life cycle to these, not unlike the situation of certain current affairs shows in broadcasting. The Fifth Estate happens to have run longer than most, but we all remember This Hour Has Seven Days. It lasted only so long.

You get a particular focus, a particular editorial idea, and you run with it for a period of time. Some magazines run for a very long time. There are magazines that are over 100 years old. Some magazines are reasonably new. The Walrus magazine, which is maybe 10 years old now, has kind of replaced what Saturday Night magazine was, and that magazine was around for more than 100 years.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

It's a niche market. Both of you are in niche markets. That's why you're either going to succeed or not going to succeed. You're not looking for 100% audience. You know who you're targeting.

I'll finish up with you, if I can, Mr. Holmes or Mr. Knight. Are there any good deals left in digital publishing?

9:15 a.m.

Board Chair, Magazines Canada

Douglas Knight

From an investment point of view?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Yes. And thank you for saying you didn't want any more money, first of all.

9:15 a.m.

Board Chair, Magazines Canada

Douglas Knight

I may be the only guy in the country who comes forward and suggests this.

9:15 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9:15 a.m.

Board Chair, Magazines Canada

Douglas Knight

It's where the money's directed and where the leverage is. That's my point completely.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Yes.

9:15 a.m.

Board Chair, Magazines Canada

Douglas Knight

That, I think, is what's important for all of us in terms of good public policy—and good media strategy, frankly.

In terms of the venture capital idea, I warn public policy people to stay away from making bets on this new idea and that new idea. It doesn't work very well. Even the venture capitalists are really lucky if 5% or 6% of their investments work. So it's not a really good idea to do that, although to create an environment in which that works is great.

To go back to the point I was making about the transformation, remember that iPhone only came around in 2007. Android was in 2008. Instagram was in 2010. Google was only in 1998, and Facebook 2004. The speed at which these things are happening.... If you asked me to look around the corner and tell you what transformative new thing will happen next year, I could not predict that for you.

Facebook has completely transformed the economics in this thing. Before that, Google did. It was Google that took down newspapers. Google took down classified advertising for newspapers. Tens of billions of dollars left the newspaper industry within five years. It was all because of Google. Your local plumber could buy a keyword so that at 3 o'clock in the morning, if you had a leak, you could get the name of your plumber and they would know your address, just like that. Before that, the plumber had to buy an ad in the weekly newspaper and it cost him $500. Now he pays $5 for the keyword.

The vast majority of Google's advertisers are little tiny businesses. That has wiped out the underlying financing of newspapers. It took a long time for the big national advertisers to catch up to that.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

You've heard the dollars to dimes adage.

9:20 a.m.

Board Chair, Magazines Canada

Douglas Knight

That's also true as well.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

It is very true.

To Mr. Smith, you have a niche market. I know that your membership is on 31 campuses. Do students on campuses actually pay a fee to the university? In the tuition for lots of students, a certain amount would go to physical education, for instance, or community radio. Are there any situations like that with your group?

9:20 a.m.

Membership Coordinator, National Campus and Community Radio Association

Luke Smith

For campus stations, the majority are supported by student levies. However, what we're seeing is a major push-back from student unions across the country. We've seen campus stations have to move off campus after being defunded from their student levies. We're seeing campus stations being challenged more and more for that levy itself.

It is a perilous situation for a lot of campuses. It's not true for every one of them that we have. For that group of stations, it is stable funding if they're not being challenged, but on the whole the idea of a student levy for campus stations is coming under fire. We also have 60 community stations that don't get that.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Yes, I know that. Really, radio is not expensive. I know you said that, but the start-up fees are minuscule, really, from $30,000 to $50,000. But I do hear you.

Perhaps you can talk about the education aspect of it. In broadcasting right now, with the demise of TV and radio, you can't get into the business. Community radio would give you that kind of open window where, if you were an aspiring broadcaster, I believe there was a chance to get into the business. Am I right?

9:20 a.m.

Membership Coordinator, National Campus and Community Radio Association

Luke Smith

Absolutely. I was talking to a station yesterday, and it was the only one in the community where you would get free training on broadcasting. You would walk in, and I think the community would pay $20 and for students it was free. It was one of the campus stations; I forget which one.

It's a door into the industry. That's exactly it. We have 15,000 volunteers across the country and only 1,000 staff. We're very reliant on training and educating the general public.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much. That was good.

Now we want to go to Mr. MacGregor, for the NDP.

9:20 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I think I'll start with Magazines Canada and either Mr. Knight or Mr. Holmes.

I want to touch on the subject of advertising. You've gone a little bit over the fundamental tectonic shift we've seen over the last decade. I was looking on your website, and you have a study there entitled “How Magazine Advertising Works”, Fifth Edition. I'm wondering if you could talk about how advertising in magazines works. I know you touched on it a little bit, but I wanted to hear more detail about the strengths of magazines for advertisers. You did mention that on mobile platforms it doesn't tend to work as well. It may be that because of the frequency of the ads it doesn't have enough time to sink in.

9:20 a.m.

Board Chair, Magazines Canada

Douglas Knight

Thank you.

Asking about how advertising works is like a layup, so thank you.

9:20 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9:20 a.m.

Board Chair, Magazines Canada

Douglas Knight

However, I would start by saying that advertising in magazines is falling off precipitously. It didn't fall off as quickly as it did in newspapers, but it's catching up. Magazine advertising in Canada is down 50% plus. In fact, the advertising in 2016 is actually falling off faster than it did in the economic slowdown of 2008-09, so it's catching.

It's not because advertisers don't like magazine advertising. It's that they have to play across the whole ecosystem and they have to take it from somewhere, and they take it from where they have been traditionally spending it. The environment right now is that we are under enormous pressure with the decline of print advertising. That's our biggest threat.

The reason magazine advertising works is a two-part one. First, it's the only medium where the consumer actually likes the advertising. If you were to ask a woman if you could give her Vogue magazine with the ads or without the ads, she would say that it has to be with the ads. You're not going to get that in television, you're not going to get that in radio, and in newspapers they don't care that much, but advertising in magazines is considered part of the content. It's welcome. That's number one.

Number two, the relationship between a magazine and a reader is a long-term relationship. It's one on one, with a single reader and a single editor, and they form a relationship that lasts a long time. They either love the magazine or they don't. You will know this, I hope, from your own behaviour when you say that you really love one magazine and are not so fond of another one. You fall in love with a magazine, with the narrative arc of the magazine, the conception of the magazine, the judgments and the choices that the editor makes, the way the stories unfold, and the usefulness of the magazine. All of those things create an emotional connection, a loyalty between the reader and the magazine, driven by the vision of the editor.

That loyalty and that environment are very helpful to the advertisers. It's why the advertisers will choose to be in some magazines and not in others. As you pointed out, it's a niche medium, so advertisers will choose the environment of a magazine that's appropriate. If they're selling shampoo, cars, or banking services, whatever they're advertising, they'll choose the environment that they think works best for them. What they love about magazines and what's powerful about magazines is that openness of readers to the advertising as part of the content, and the emotional connection, the sort of warmth around that experience, as opposed to an interruptive experience.

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Despite the precipitous decline in advertising and print media, do you see magazines as sort of holding the fort? You did say that the number of magazines in Canada has increased, so in comparing yourself with newspapers, do you see magazines as the bastion for advertisers?

9:25 a.m.

Board Chair, Magazines Canada

Douglas Knight

I wish I could say yes; I cannot. I said earlier that there's a narrative saying that we're going from print to digital, and that's not true. It's not true, but there will be a lot of magazines that will not survive if this continues and if people don't discover an alternate source of revenue, and that alternate source of revenue will not be from their digital extensions. We're all over every digital platform, and the revenue is not there, so the business strategy has to be that there's the declining revenue and we know that, and we're not going to be able to put our finger in that dike.

There is the evolution, if you like, of multiple digital platforms, such that we have to be on every platform. You cannot not be on every platform. Also, you have to be good at it, and you have to develop good, strong, loyal audiences across the digital spectrum, but that's not going to replace the economics of print advertising, so then you have to ask, where is the revenue growth?

The revenue growth at the moment is coming from our clients who are saying that they have to create their own content. By that, I don't mean the advertorials that you see in the newspaper all the time. That's a 50-year-old version of it. You see a lot of that stuff every day. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about clients figuring out that they actually need to be great storytellers.

We do a magazine for the Pearson airport. Why did Pearson airport do a magazine? Well, Pearson airport wanted to get the travellers from the northern part of the United States to come through Toronto instead of going to Chicago, LAX, or JFK when they go to Europe or Asia.

What's happened is that Pearson has gone from 30 million travellers a year to 40 million travellers a year, and they've done that by attracting people. To do that, they wanted to create a very congenial environment. They upgraded the restaurants. They put out a beautiful magazine that was voted one of the five best travel magazines in the world in its first year. That was a client, Pearson, saying that they don't just have to advertise—they have to create an environment that achieves their business ends.

Does that make sense?

9:25 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

Yes, absolutely.

9:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

You have one and a half minutes.

9:30 a.m.

NDP

Alistair MacGregor NDP Cowichan—Malahat—Langford, BC

My next question is for Mr. Smith. I certainly do appreciate local campus radio. It's not too long ago that I was a student at the University of Victoria, and Vancouver Island University is also a big part of my riding.

You made mention of the campaign to unlock FM chips on smartphones, and I know that streaming services are growing in popularity these days. I am very curious about this and was wondering if you could talk in a little more detail about your campaign and whether you have any recommendations for the Government of Canada to help with that. It struck me that if we are all walking around with our smartphones, it would be great to be able to tune in to a local radio station.