Evidence of meeting #155 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was content.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin
That brings us to the end of it.
Mr. Nantel, the floor is yours for seven minutes.
3:50 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Let’s get serious.
Thank you very much for being here, witnesses. I feel that you at the CRTC are the guardians of the status quo. During the bickering that pitted Québecor against Bell, you were roundly criticized for being a little antiquated and out-of-date at certain points. I tired myself out repeating that the bickering was over deck chairs on the Titanic, because the reality is that the state of conventional television is a lot worse than specialty television. Is that not true?
3:50 p.m.
Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Yes, it is.
3:50 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Conventional television stations are those that produce local and national content and news. So this is a major problem.
I will continue with the subjects that were just brought up.
Often, if you ask those in the org charts of large groups, you are told that everything is going well and that they are making lots of money. When they talk to the shareholders who want to sell their shares, that's clearly what they do. When they go to the government, they say that it's frightening, that money is no longer being made, and that things are disgusting.
It’s not Bell any more, it’s Bell Media that tells us that it is having difficulty paying the salary of Ben Mulroney, the host of the show Your Morning. So we have to take it all with a grain of salt.
Just now, however, you told Mr. Boissonnault that 17% of the public gets the audiovisual content of their choice online. Am I missing something? With young people—millennials under 40, 35 years of age—that number has to be much higher. You are probably not using recent figures.
I would like to jump to the conclusion of your report right away. I feel that it is a very lucid report and that the whole television production sector was happy to see that you fully understood everyone’s arguments. Heaven knows that television has a fundamental role in our society, particularly in Quebec, where so much has been invested in it. From Point de mire—a show that René Lévesque hosted—through the Janette veut savoir series to the current show called Fugueuse, all kinds of shows have been vehicles for the evolution of Quebec society.
Take Fugueuse as an example. The show dealt with the problem of juvenile prostitution, which is a harsh reality in Canada, in Quebec and in Longueuil, particularly at the Longueuil metro station. Let me tell you about it. That harsh reality was depicted in a work of fiction that caught everyone’s attention. Actors in the show were featured in an article in the Star System magazine and became known to the public. The series was also discussed on a program that brought together a social worker and the producer or writer of the series. It was nominated for a Gémeaux award. Young people got out of prostitution because the series allowed that reality to be talked about.
This is a long way from the toxic consumption—that’s an exaggeration; let’s just say the consumption—that does very little on a societal level, like the Netflix series 13 Reasons Why. That show was dropped on us and I binge-watched it in a hurry because I was afraid that my children might see it before me. I was right to be afraid because, according to figures from the United States, there was a 27% increase in suicide rates after the first episodes. That is huge. You are the defenders, the guardians, of the system we have in place, I feel.
One of the conclusions of your report is to “replace prescriptive licensing with comprehensive and binding service agreements that include traditional and new players”. So you are talking about a hybrid system. Do you have enough wiggle room to change things? What do you need?
The culture sector is asking the Yale commission to propose interim measures as a matter of urgency. What do you need to do something similar?
3:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
I will give you the broad outlines to see if we are heading in the right direction. If not, Mr. Carter can add to my comments.
In our opinion, we need a legislative framework that is clear and gives us clear objectives to which we can commit. This is in order to ensure that all companies that benefit from the Canadian system are contributing to it. That is the first issue.
We also need specific tools, more flexible tools, so that we are able to have a mechanism that adapts to each of the new kinds of services and that allows us to ensure compliance.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
For example, the new media exemption which has been in effect since 1999—if I am not mistaken—is that not something that you could remove yourselves? Do you really need the request to come from the Governor in Council or from the government?
3:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
We need legislative changes so that we can act in that area properly, because at the moment, we have two options. We can either grant a license, as long as the applicant is Canadian, or grant an exemption.
With exemptions, our only way to make sure that the conditions are fulfilled is to grant a licence. At that point, the problem becomes a bit circular.
3:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
This is why we are saying that we need a clear legislative direction so that all the companies benefitting from the system can contribute to it. We also need flexible tools, other than simply issuing licences, as well as ways of ensuring compliance, such as administrative monetary penalties.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
Can I ask you to enlighten me about what you would see as achievable with licenses? The exact term you used was “comprehensive service agreements”.
Let’s talk about Netflix. Netflix hired people from Telefilm Canada to tell us that our system is not a good one. That's amazing; thank you very much, Uncle Sam. But Netflix is still the big player. Normally, traditional television should have stopped posting losses. Now Netflix is being stung by Hulu, Amazon Prime Video, and all the rest.
In your opinion, what would be an example of a commitment from a player like Netflix to (a) fund Canadian and Quebec productions and (b) distribute them? Have you worked out any possible models?
3:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
We can compare that to existing situations. We have not developed models for each of the different types. Yes, Netflix is the big player, but the next big player will be Amazon.
3:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Amazon sells you refrigerators and gives you programming. Are we going to regulate refrigerators? That would be difficult. That’s why we want something flexible.
3:55 p.m.
NDP
Pierre Nantel NDP Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC
If I understand correctly, Amazon Prime even provides its producers with audience figures.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin
You only have 10 seconds left. Thank you very much.
The floor now goes to Ms. Dhillon for seven minutes.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Good afternoon. Thank you for coming.
My questions will be for both of you, whomever is comfortable answering.
You spoke about the report. I'd like to elaborate a little bit more on that. There are risks, and there are also opportunities. Could you tell us what the opportunities are for creators and Canadians in general?
3:55 p.m.
Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
I'll start with Canadians. Canadians are clearly benefiting from access to far greater programming than before. They are clearly consuming products in a different way, which is primarily on demand. Monsieur Nantel is a fan of binge-watching. Many Canadians are likewise. So, there certainly are benefits for consumers. The high adoption of these new forms of distributing programming in Canada.... Clearly, Canadians are benefiting from it. That is not to be discounted, and that is a very important factor for our industry.
On the production side, right now production has never been so high in Canada because there are a number of new companies here that are producing content. Is it all Canadian? That's probably a debate for another day, but there is a high level of production. There is the ability to export that Canadian content to world platforms. There is the ability to bring older programming or legacy programming back to the forefront and provide it on different platforms. There are a number of benefits to the system.
Also not to be discounted are the new forms of data available to programmers and broadcasters so that they are able to match and understand what Canadians want, both to provide them better programming and to sell advertising to their customers to support making that programming.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Can you talk to us a little bit about the risks and the potential impacts of those risks?
4 p.m.
Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Naturally, the risks are with regard to the fact that we used to be in a closed system where one would issue a licence and one would—as I would say, being a regulator—achieve regulatory rent from that and then contribute back to the system. Most of our system is built on that closed environment. That is no longer the case that we have in front of us, so the risks there are, clearly, that the support mechanisms for Canadian content will be diminished over time and have been diminished here. This will result in fewer types of programming and will certainly make it much more difficult to support niche programming or programming that is meant to support the multicultural nature of this country, or to develop indigenous programming or OLMC programming. Those are certainly not policy objectives that.... Those are certainly under threat, and without some form of support, they will not be produced.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
Another question of concern, then, is about revenues. Perhaps you could give us some more information on how changes in radio broadcasting revenues would affect the financial contributions used for the development of Canadian music and also spoken-word content.
4 p.m.
Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
If we want to speak of music, our prime intervention in the area of music is regulating radio stations—approving, licensing and renewing radio stations. Radio stations contribute to the system by various means. They play Canadian content, so there's actually making that content available to Canadians. Essentially it's a marketing vehicle for Canadian content. They also contribute a percentage of their revenue toward the actual development, marketing and creation of new content, new artists being supported through that route. Artists who have a certain success in Canada are being brought to international stages. Some of their contributions go to those objectives.
Canadian content development monies do go to support spoken word programming, and news and information stations are certainly contributing toward Canada's democracy also.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
In the conclusion of the report, the CRTC worked with stakeholders and companies. In the conclusion there were recommendations to move forward, and there were four approaches to that.
Can you tell us your opinion on what the impacts would be, short term and long term, moving forward, if we maintain the current approach?
4 p.m.
Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
What's key is that we always in part overestimate the pace of change but underestimate the real impact of change over time. What we have here is a clear pace of change, which for the moment is.... Most of our markets that we've described in our report are mature and declining. We don't see a sharp decline nor estimate that there will be a cliff immediately, but clearly over time, digital products, new ways of consuming international providers, will be the main vehicle for consumption of product over the future. The main risk there is that over time the supports will be eroded, and the likelihood is that Canadian content and other social objectives of the Broadcasting Act will not be met.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Anju Dhillon Liberal Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC
How would deregulation of traditional players have an impact?
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Broadcasting, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
At this moment in time, it would probably accelerate the pace of change. That's one of the reasons we did not suggest that as one of the four ways that we evaluated going forward as preferable.