Evidence of meeting #157 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was technology.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Thank you.
You made a number of references to the Waterson report. I understand there were a number of countries involved in that review.
I'm assuming we can correctly believe it's the new technology and the new economy that has made it possible for all of this to come about. Is that a fair interpretation?
Former Member of Provincial Parliament for Kingston and the Islands, As an Individual
Yes, I would say so. Bot software can apparently make 120,000 attempts at buying a ticket in one second.
Liberal
Former Member of Provincial Parliament for Kingston and the Islands, As an Individual
I think so. I'm quick, but you might be quicker.
Liberal
Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Was there any suggestion by Professor Waterson of any technology that might be implemented to manage this in other fashions?
Former Member of Provincial Parliament for Kingston and the Islands, As an Individual
It's a good question. He didn't go into that and he didn't go very far into looking at venues as primary stakeholders. I feel that if venues were supported by the other industry partners, they would be able to get the technology to at least improve some of it. He didn't really go there.
His report was fantastic. It was very comprehensive. However, I was a little disappointed to see that he didn't go there and he didn't go into specifics about what type of technology is out there.
It's a bit of an arms race with the technology. The industry stakeholders are always trying to be one step ahead, or so they claim, of the unscrupulous secondary ticket sellers.
Liberal
Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Did he make reference to any jurisdictions in his study that seemed to be more advanced than we are and that have both a provincial and a federal responsibility with respect to it; and how well might they relate to each other?
Former Member of Provincial Parliament for Kingston and the Islands, As an Individual
I believe the U.S. has 13 states that have developed some legislation, but it didn't seem clear whether there were any prosecutions, so I don't know how effective it has been. That legislation is referenced in the notes I took from the Waterson report. It came out at the end of Obama's time. It was one of the last things he brought forward. I don't know if a similar situation has happened there, but the legislation in the States intended to ban bots, have fines, civil penalties and, on occasion, jail sentences.
New York was fairly progressive. They had a report done in early 2016 on allocation of tickets prior to the general sale, and the use of bots. Brokers would face civil penalties if caught, but the attorney general suggested criminal penalties. The industry was obliged to play a substantial role in tackling the problem.
That's why, if you're looking at developing some legislation, it's critical that you have all those partners at the table.
Liberal
Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
You made reference to Professor Waterson coming up with four recommendations, on access, affordability, transparency and enforcement.
Former Member of Provincial Parliament for Kingston and the Islands, As an Individual
Those were the pillars we had in our provincial legislation.
Liberal
Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Then there were some actions that it was suggested be provided around each of those.
Former Member of Provincial Parliament for Kingston and the Islands, As an Individual
Yes.
Liberal
Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
The ultimate one was enforcement, that the laws had to be followed and had to find consequences, yet the ability to find people who have broken this seems so obtuse and so far removed.
Former Member of Provincial Parliament for Kingston and the Islands, As an Individual
Yes.
Liberal
Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
It's a nice set of principles or values, but are they realistic, in terms of being able to find people, enforce and provide consequences?
Former Member of Provincial Parliament for Kingston and the Islands, As an Individual
It's really difficult, and you are zeroing in on the nub of the problem. It is very difficult, but if you limit some of this behaviour, and create more awareness in the consumers' minds about an acceptable markup to pay on a secondary ticket.... If you were buying tickets to the Ottawa Senators.... If you wanted to, you were a fan and you tried to get tickets, it would be.... I've lost my train of thought now—
Liberal
Gordie Hogg Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
I ruined you with Ottawa. I understand how the Senators could ruin your life.
We've heard testimony from a number of groups who are all talking about public information programs, and wanting to raise awareness.
How do you think that would work? How would a public information system.... I'm not even sure how you make those connections with people. How do you actually convey...? We can have a message, but how do you think a public information program might work?
Former Member of Provincial Parliament for Kingston and the Islands, As an Individual
I think that you may have to oblige some of the primary stakeholders to inform the public. You might have to have a communication campaign that you work on together. You might have advertising around the time of an event that talks about what people should be seeing on a ticket. They need to be seeing that there is a section, a row and a seat. They need to be seeing a face value on that ticket, and the end price. If there are services charges, those services charges must be clearly laid out.
Hopefully, with that awareness campaign, if you go back to see the Senators—because I'm sure you're going to be lining up to see them—
Liberal
Former Member of Provincial Parliament for Kingston and the Islands, As an Individual
—you would have the opportunity to be an informed buyer, and you're going to say, “I'm sorry, but I'm not going to buy Senators' tickets for $2,000, or $20.”
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Julie Dabrusin
That brings me to the end of your time.
That finishes our round, and we're a little tight on time. I wanted to check if anybody else did have questions they wanted to ask.
Mr. Shields, you do. Does anyone else?
I will give those final five minutes to you, Mr. Shields.
Conservative
Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB
Thank you.
I appreciate the work you're doing. I talked to my daughter and my wife about this, and they said, “It's our responsibility. We're the consumer. If we can't figure this out—
Former Member of Provincial Parliament for Kingston and the Islands, As an Individual
Yes, I know.
Conservative
Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB
—and if we pay too much, that's our problem.”
I agree with some of the things you're saying, but how would you enforce that?
They see it as being like going to a yard sale. If you want to buy that piece of junk somebody's selling, and pay $100 for something that's worth a dollar, that's your problem, because you wanted to buy it.
If you want to protect consumers—and awareness may be the way to do it—where is the responsibility of the consumer here?
Former Member of Provincial Parliament for Kingston and the Islands, As an Individual
You are exactly right, but the fact is that people love these cultural opportunities. It's what gives them joy in their lives. That's what culture is all about. You go to work here in the House of Commons, and you go home—some of you fly home, and some of you drive. We're in this daily grind of our work-life activity, but if you're somebody who can't afford those cultural opportunities, there's a certain reduction in your joie de vivre. It's really important.
The reason I can tell you this with 100% certainty is the passion that I heard, from people across the country. I never imagined in my wildest dreams that this would get the attention it did. Never once did I think that it would be this poignant for Ontarians.