Canadian Heritage Committee on May 9th, 2019

[Sophie Kiwala]

Okay.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

You were an MPP when the Tragically Hip show took place. What was the difference between the face value of the tickets and what the resellers were asking?

[Sophie Kiwala]

Unfortunately, I did not get the interpretation, but I think you asked me about the difference between the prices.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Yes.

[Sophie Kiwala]

For that concert, the face value of the tickets was $125 and the highest price that resellers were asking was $5,000.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

So there really was a lot of greed. You therefore introduced your private member's bill—in 2017, I believe—in order to tackle the problem. You indicated that your bill was amended and I would like to know more about that. You also seem to be saying that there is a combination of provincial and federal legislation. We have not received your document, but the chair will certainly get it to us once it has been translated. You talked about persuasion, perception and public education.

I would like to hear what you have to say about the effectiveness of your bill, amended though it is. What is this mix of provincial and federal legislation? How can we attain our objective of guaranteeing that people are paying a fair price for their tickets to shows?

[Sophie Kiwala]

All right. That's a lot.

To recap what you have asked, I'm not aware of anything that's happening federally on this bill. I didn't talk about capping prices in Bill 22. When it was adopted by the government, they did make that change. That was one issue that I think was a very good move.

I think something that we can do federally is almost a duplication of what we saw in the provincial bill, under the 41st Parliament, when I was there. I don't mean the one I did. I wanted to create something that was passable, and would solve a problem very quickly. When it was adopted by the government, it was made more complicated and comprehensive.

Does that answer your question?

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Yes.

Can you tell us how efficient the measures in your bill and the amendments to it have been, given the current situation in Ontario in terms of ticket resales?

[Sophie Kiwala]

The legislation was due to begin on July 1, so we didn't have an opportunity to assess efficiency. We did our best to make sure that we were creating greater accessibility to cultural opportunities, but it's very complicated. We needed to start somewhere, and making ticket buying software legal was a correct place to start, in my opinion.

It would have been something that would have been monitored by the industry itself, so complaints would have gone forward. Complaints would have to have been made to police associations across the province. From there, monetary penalties would have been instituted.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Basically, you are telling me that you have not been able to see your bill as such put into effect, and that cold water was poured on your initiative.

[Sophie Kiwala]

That's correct. As soon as the change happened in Ontario, in fact, I called the individual for the PC side, who had debated the bill with me. I trusted that he was going to still be interested in the bill. I said that this was coming into effect on July 1, so he needed to be aware that on July 1 there may be complaints coming forward to police associations.

I checked with the police associations on whether or not they had received any bulletin on what to do about complaints with this new legislation and they had not. That was why I was concerned about it and I alerted him to it. Within a few weeks he became the minister and started to take it apart.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

You only have 30 seconds left, Mr. Blaney.

[Steven Blaney, Conservative, Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC]

Okay.

Mrs. Kiwala, I would like your comments on the third point I raised. Do you believe that your bill, and the 22,000 responses it generated, have had an effect and have made the ticket sales sector aware of the resale issue?

[Sophie Kiwala]

Within minutes of tabling my bill, I had people calling my office from across the country—stakeholders like Live Nation, Ticketmaster and StubHub. They were in Queen's Park almost within 24 hours. There was a lot of interest.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

Thank you.

Mr. Nantel, you have the floor for seven minutes.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mrs. Kiwala, you clearly are the exception to the rule with your pertinent and most forthright comments. The Tragically Hip show is now forever a part of Canadian heritage. It was a defining show in the history of Canadian culture. My congratulations. However, I remain sceptical about our committee's study of the matter. In the release that came when you published your bill, I saw that you had obtained the support of Tracy MacCharles, the Government of Ontario's Minister of Government and Consumer Services at the time. That's why I am telling you that you are the exception to the rule.

Getting back to the Tragically Hip show, some people seized on the opportunity to make a profit from ticket sales to a show that hit an emotional nerve for an entire nation. That action, and the hundreds of percent profit they made by reselling tickets is a total travesty. It is disgusting and immoral.

I'm wondering what you'd think if a bunch of kids decided to buy all the tomatoes in grocery stores in the GTA, and one U.S. company said they were going to start “Tomato-matic” to resell all these tomatoes and they'll just grab a person to sell to all these individually and make these sales. Would you think that Doug Ford would say that's okay—that's great?

It's the same situation. Clearly, no matter the topic or the product, this systematization of an individual opportunity is what's making it a big problem. It's the same thing as if I offer you a ride to go back to the train, and suddenly it becomes Uber and we make it free with no taxes.

To me, it's a good catch for the committee to have you here because you bring the very big exception. The biggest act in Canadian heritage and in Canadian pop music surely was The Tragically Hip, from sea to sea to sea. It is important to be courageous. You have been against strong winds for sure, and you did the right thing. I'm sorry to quote another Conservative, but it was a common sense thing to do, and I appreciate that.

In the cultural world we have to steer and advise the government.

I am so pleased to have found the headline of a news release from Telefilm Canada on the Internet. It mentions three people who are here today. "Telefilm Canada and the Rogers Group of Funds", one of whose representative has been overseeing things very seriously for several weeks, “celebrate 10 years of partnership as they announce their support of 18 documentary productions." One of those documentaries was about the Tragically Hip, in fact, and it was really fantastic.

This may be a bit of a stretch, but I have to tell you that, if we are going to discuss and vote on my motion shortly, I hope that you are not going to take out any of its daring content. Telefilm Canada shows that it has no understanding of the way the cinema industry works. The recent violent firings must remain the key to this motion.

Mrs. Kiwala, thank you very much for your involvement with the Tragically Hip concert. In my opinion, it is a specific example of the risk that some of our artists in Canada and Quebec are running. We have heard various points of view on this issue. Some producers have gone so far as to tell us that it would suit their purposes very well to sell their tickets in lots of 100 rather than singly, because the marketing costs would be significantly less.

Did you have any direct negative reactions from the entertainment sector after you introduced your bill?

[Sophie Kiwala]

They seemed to be very co-operative and very concerned, obviously. There are millions of dollars being made in this industry, often with the flick of a switch. I don't know the exact amount, but I heard it was $1.2 billion in 2012 to be made off the secondary market. I expect it's much higher than that.

I do think that right now the time is right to make a change. It's not going to be perfect, and everybody knows that. Industry will be the first to be at the door and they will complain and they will be loud and they will say it will drive sales of tickets underground and it will be worse, but—

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

It's not the producers. The resale industry is going to say that, I guess.

[Sophie Kiwala]

That's right.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

How do you perceive the fact that StubHub has a partnership with the Blue Jays in Toronto? How do you interpret this?

[Sophie Kiwala]

It's the nature of what's been happening in this uncontrolled industry. If government doesn't do something to put some stopgap measures on this run-amok industry....

I enjoyed my conversations with all of those stakeholder partners. From every single one I learned a massive amount about the industry. They were all very keen to work with me. The amount of money that is at stake here is very significant. If government doesn't act, it's just going to continue to be unreachable for people who can't afford it.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

I want to draw a parallel to how difficult it would be if one tomato producer were to decide to sell its produce only to Loblaws. Would it not then be some cartel situation where the prices would go up?

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

That does put you at the end of your time.

[Pierre Nantel, NDP, Longueuil—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Thank you, Mrs. Kiwala.

[The Chair, Liberal, Julie Dabrusin]

We will be going to Mr. Hogg for his seven minutes.