Canadian Heritage Committee on June 9th, 2016

[Cynthia White-Thornley]

That's a challenge.

We don't use the term “local” to describe museums when we talk about them because, as you said, the Art Gallery of Ontario or ROM might be your local museum. We were looking at it by size of museums.

For the purposes of the data that we've assembled for you, we have given you a financial threshold, which is likely to imply that a museum that is smaller in nature will be local. National museums are the six crown corporations that are the national museums in Canada: the National Gallery, the Museum of History, and so on.

Provincial museums are those that receive provincial funding. It might be The Rooms in Newfoundland or the Art Gallery of Ontario or the ROM. They're primarily funded by the provincial government.

Municipalities often have many small museums that they fund. Municipal museums, generally, are what you might consider local, because their budgets are typically lower, although in a place like Toronto, they might well have budgets well over $1 million.

A local museum, at least from my perspective, refers to one with a smaller budget that serves a local purpose more than a national or an international or even a provincial purpose. It's about the content. It's aimed at a local audience and it tends to be smaller.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

That's helpful to us as we go forward with the study, because as a definitional item, we're looking more at small museums and looking at the budget size rather than whether it's specifically local in terms of where it's located. That's helpful going forward.

I was interested as well when I was looking at this deck about.... I don't think I have very much time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have about 15 seconds.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I have 15 seconds. All right, if you have any advice for small museums in an urban centre, can you give a 10-second response?

[Cynthia White-Thornley]

They have to connect with their local community and be a centre for other activity. They're generally appealing to the local story or something special from that community, such as a person or an event that happened there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I want to thank the department for coming and helping to give us an idea about the scope of this study we are going to undertake so that we have an environmental scan of what is and isn't available, etc.

At the last meeting we discussed the idea that the study does not pertain to national museums or to major provincial museums, so beyond that—not national, not major provincial—would you then grade everything else based on the amount of money they spend or what their activity is?

[Cynthia White-Thornley]

We could provide you with a list of provincial and national museums, but most museums receive some significant part of their operating funding from the province or the municipality or both, so it's very difficult to define it that way.

I interpreted from the description of the study, when you said you didn't want to include the national or provincial museums and that you wanted to focus on local, that you were going for things that were smaller and that could therefore be looked at generally from a budget perspective.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Yes, that's what I meant. Could you give us such a list?

[Cynthia White-Thornley]

Yes. We'll see what we can pull out from our summer survey.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you so much, and thank you very much for coming today.

[Cynthia White-Thornley]

It's my pleasure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We'll take a few moments for the witnesses to leave and the next group of witnesses to come on.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Madam Chair, for what it's worth, when I was crafting the motion, my real intention was.... I don't recall seeing not including provincial ones. My real intention was just to exclude the six major national museums. That's what I had in mind.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Committee, please, we will resume.

Now we have our next witness, Monsieur René Rivard, chairman of Cultura, which is a group that advises museums. We thought that if anybody could tell us about museums and their needs, etc., it would be Mr. Rivard.

Mr. Rivard, welcome. You have 10 minutes to present, and then there will be a question-and-answer session. When you have two minutes left, I will give you a heads-up so that you can wrap things up.

Begin, please, Mr. Rivard.

[René Rivard, Chairman, Cultura]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good morning, everyone. Since I just found out yesterday that I would be here today, I have no document to submit.

First, I will go over my career. I have worked in museums for almost 50 years. I have been an observer of the museum cultural scene for all that time. I have participated in the creation and renovation of about 250 museums around the world, but mostly in Quebec. About 50 of them are in Europe, including France, Sweden, Portugal and the United States. I have worked in various capacities, either as a museum planning designer—this is the step prior to the work of architects—or as promoter of ongoing projects supporting the architectural or operational plan and developing themes. I have also worked with collections. I have created around 40 permanent exhibitions for museums, heritage sites and other places. This morning, I would like to talk about the development of museums over the past 50 years.

Before the 1970s, we had what I call “the museology of objects”. Let me illustrate with a simple equation. A museum is a building to which collections are added and that has visitors in addition to curators who look after the collections. In the 1970s, a worldwide movement emerged as what was called “new museology”, which led to eco-museums and interpretive centres. The dimensions of the equation then changed. The new museums consisted of a piece of land, not just a building. For instance, in a national park, which covers a large area, an interpretive centre was set up to provide information about the land. Instead of presenting a collection of objects, the centre handles all the heritage assets on that land. Visitors, and often the general public, take part in its development. That’s another level, which I call the “museum of subjects”. So there were both objects and subjects.

In the past 15 years, a new type of museology has developed, which, in my opinion, is the model local museums increasingly aspire to. They are not necessarily major museums, but they are close to their communities and their people. I have called this trend the “museology of ideas”. So we are moving to a much more abstract level, where the museum is, as I call it, a “community museum”. The community museum includes a society and its challenges, in addition to problems that need solutions. The dynamic forces of the public are demanding change. This is why many museums are now talking about sustainable development and climate change. In fact, they are addressing difficult topics, consulting their people and organizing exhibitions. The Écomusée du fier monde, in Montreal, is quite a remarkable example of what can be done at the social level as well as in terms of cultural development and sustainable development.

I have painted a picture of museology as I have seen it over 50 years. In my view, this will enable museums to become development tools that are much more effective than when they were part of the museology of objects. We have seen the museology of treasures followed by the museology of knowledge. We have now reached the museology of development stage.

The general conference of the International Council of Museums (ICOM) will be held in Milano in July. The theme will be precisely the change in cultural landscapes. In other words, we are no longer looking at objects, but rather subjects. In my view, this is a sign of new tools that museums can use.

In my view, to accomplish this, changes are needed in the attitudes of professionals, in funding, funding sources, the use of new communication and conservation technologies, and so on.

In a nutshell, that’s what I had to say about my view on the current situation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Rivard.

We will begin questions with Mr. O'Regan, for the Liberals, for seven minutes.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for your presentation, Mr. Rivard.

I had the pleasure of sitting on the board of directors of The Rooms in Newfoundland, which houses a provincial museum, a provincial art gallery, and provincial archives. While I didn't get involved in management, nor should I have, as a member of the board and executive I provided some strategic direction. One of the fascinating phenomena that I witnessed over the past 10 years was the growth online, particularly in reaching a younger demographic.

In the 50 years, as you said, that you've been advising museums in this country, how do you see the online aspect? Is it complementary to museums? Is it supplementary? Will museums become places where we store things, but people will view them online visually, or will people use their phones, for instance, in order to acquire complementary information when they're in museums, or will it be both?

I'd like your thoughts in terms of things that you've seen change over the course of time, particularly in terms of digital technology.

[René Rivard]

This is a kind of evolution. There has been...with the arrival of computers in the 1980s, we saw many museums experimenting with the new technologies.

My idea on this subject is that all these communication devices you have, your iPhone or whatever, cannot replace the basis of the three-dimensional objects or heritage that the museum or the heritage site can provide. In other words, they should target something that museums have to offer, but in a complementary way. They should be inviting people to come to see those things rather than giving them all the information.

When I plan an exhibition, I always say that there are three levels of reading in an exhibition. The first level is either the works of art or the titles of the major text. Then the secondary text is more informative, and the third level, which is usually hidden, is one that you have to find in other ways, because it's not readily available, and that kindles food for thought.

I think this is where we can come in with this museology of ideas that I was talking about and put in the ideas, because the museum does not have ideas. It collects mostly 3-D objects, but these ideas are linked to these objects, and people sometimes do not see the relationship. This is where this third level of reading is important, and the new technologies help museums in providing that to the public.

It's not an easy task.

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

No.

[René Rivard]

Food for thought has to be well dosed, and it has to go to the right clientele.

For example, I worked in northern Sweden with the Lapps, with the Sami community, and we did their national museum in Jokkmokk.

We designed the exhibition of the museum like a reindeer corral. In other words, in the fall when they gather all the reindeer, they make them go around in an area where they turn around, and turn, and turn, and that's the first level. Then traps open up, and reindeer that belong to one group go into one area, or in other words, into one subject. From there they are branded. After that comes the evening, and they have to eat, so there's another loft where they go and feed, and that's the food for thought.

This is the third level. It's hidden from the reindeer for a long time, but when the time comes, the door opens and the food is available. This is the way museums should operate more and more, not just by giving first and second levels of reading the heritage.

Does that answer your question?

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Yes, it does.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Seamus O'Regan, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

It's quite illustrative and extremely unique.

Let me give you an opportunity.... I will give you a wide berth, because Lord knows where you'll take us. That was very interesting.

Given your experience, and we're talking specifically about smaller museums here, I'm wondering what you see as their major challenges and what recommendations you may have for them.

[René Rivard]

Smaller museums have an annual budget problem. This is all across the board in every country. I have not seen many small museums that have sufficient money, because their staff are always thinking about developing new programs and helping children become more aware of things. Apart from that money, I've seen what I call professionalization of museum workers in the last 40 years. When I look at university programs that are given, most of them deal with training in museology that is more adapted to bigger museums.

I don't see training for small museums as being an option. Everybody wants to be a curator at the museum of fine arts, but the places are limited, so they end up on the Gaspé coast in a small museum and what they learn hardly applies because they have heating problems to solve. They have this and that.

There used to be a federal government training program, but it no longer exists. I think the Canadian Museums Association will talk more about it because I was talking with John McAvity yesterday and he was telling me this.

The training is something. The other thing is what I would call thematic planning. Too many museums are talking about the same thing and not really taking one theme that is particular to the region and developing it further, even though their collection does not quite apply to it.

I was always saying that every interpretation centre in the national park system talks about glaciation. Yes, we know, we had a few thousand feet of ice 10,000 years ago. Once you've known that, if you go from Jasper to Banff and have the same story, then there is something that doesn't jibe here, so—