Evidence of meeting #80 for Canadian Heritage in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was iranian.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Policy Chair, Iranian Canadian Congress
Then you need the Ryerson University and the University of Toronto study?
Conservative
Policy Chair, Iranian Canadian Congress
Yes, that was in response to the question.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON
Thank you.
I should tell you that I spent eight years chairing our international human rights subcommittee here on Parliament Hill. As you know, Iran has a very bad human rights record. I've always made a point of stressing that you can't blame the expatriates of a country, including those who hold dual citizenship, for the behaviour of the regime of the country they come from. As an example, I've pointed out that it's inappropriate to hold Chinese Canadians in any way morally responsible for the record of the People's Republic of China vis-à-vis its Muslim Uyghur minority, which it treats terribly.
Earlier this year, you used a term in a letter you wrote to the Toronto Sun, “Islamophobia”, and you talked about “Iranophobia”, using those two words side by side. I notice that today you didn't use the word “Iranophobia”. Instead you used “anti-Iranian sentiment”. I want to ask you a bit about this. This question, by the way, relates to the fact that in Iran we've seen Baha'is accused of Islamophobia and Iranophobia. That's the reason I ask that question.
Policy Chair, Iranian Canadian Congress
Sorry. I didn't quite understand what the question was.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON
You used the words “Iranophobia” and “Islamophobia” side by side. I noticed now you're not using the term “Iranophobia”. You're saying “anti-Iranian sentiment” instead.
Conservative
October 25th, 2017 / 3:55 p.m.
Policy Chair, Iranian Canadian Congress
I don't think it's a change; I would say it's more of a stylistic issue. I remember it was used in a very small column. I don't think there's a lot of meaning behind the difference. “Iranophobia” has been used by some, I believe by one scholar, and it has been used before. I'm not married to it—we can change it to “anti-Iranian sentiment” if that helps.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON
It could be “discrimination against Iranians” or—
Policy Chair, Iranian Canadian Congress
Yes. Really what we're getting at and what I would be getting at with that column—and I don't know if this is still part of the testimony that we've had—what we've tried to come across with here is that the reason we even have a term for “anti-Iranian sentiment” is that we have real empirical information and observations that show that you can't merely....
Iranians, obviously, are subject to Islamophobia, but there's another trait that is specific to Iranians. It's very specific. Again I would remind you that around half of the individuals whom we surveyed said there's specifically anti-Iranian discrimination against them. That's really what I would say: that we need to tease this out.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON
I think I'm right in saying this, but you can correct me.
The problem is that the people who are expressing anti-Iranian discrimination, in some cases—the case you cited in your article was actually a case of murderous violence in Kansas—are conflating the individuals and the current regime. Some Iranian Canadians, I assume, support the regime and some don't, but it's not universal. Is that conflation at the root of the problem?
Policy Chair, Iranian Canadian Congress
I would say it's definitely part of the problem. It would be wrong for us to look at all Americans and paint them with the same brush as we would paint, for example, the president of that country at the moment. I agree that's part of the issue, but another important part of the issue is that Iran is actually being singled out.
We're not saying that Iran is perfect. It obviously has problems, but compared to some of our allies in other countries that we don't speak about really, there's no real data that suggests that Iran is necessarily acting any differently. What we're saying is that while conflation is an issue, there's also the issue of singling Iran out. Because Iranians almost all come from Iran and have connections with Iran, that singling out of Iran as a country actually affects the discrimination Iranian Canadians and the Iranian diaspora feel generally.
This is an argument that was made by Adam Weinstein, a writer in the United States. He said that the Jewish diaspora and the Iranian diaspora are similar in that sense, and the connection between the Jewish diaspora and Israel, the connection between the singling out of Israel and anti-Semitism, is very similar to the singling out of Iran and anti-Iranian sentiment. I hope that answers your questions.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON
Yes. In the movie Casablanca, at one point one of the characters, who has links to all the resistance figures in Europe, is asked if he knows the leaders of the resistance in Prague and Paris and so on, and he says, “Yes, and in Berlin too”, so at the height of World War II, when that movie was made, we were able to distinguish between Germans and Nazis. While I would never compare any regime in the world to the Nazis, all regimes have their problems, and in the case of the Iranian regime, it sounds to me as if some people are having trouble distinguishing Iranian Canadians from supporters of the regime, let alone activists for it. Would that be essentially right?
Policy Chair, Iranian Canadian Congress
Well, I mean, again I would say that this is one part of the issue, but the other part is that we do actually have an issue with the singling out of Iran specifically. Every country has its problems, as you said, and every regime has its problems, but the singling out of the country of Iran for its behaviour—behaviour that is not really empirically different from any other country, either within the region or otherwise, with which we have even very friendly relations—is an additional problem. The conflation is one, and then the singling out of Iran specifically is another, and yes, that would be my argument.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON
I've used up all my time, so thank you very much.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
I'm going to give you a little extra time, if you wish. You can have another minute.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON
Oh, thank you.
In that case, let me deal very specifically with the concern I have regarding the Baha'i.
As you know, in Iran the constitution protects the Christian and Jewish minorities, and also Zoroastrians, but not the Baha'i. Of course Iran was the home of the Baha'i originally. In going through the Internet in preparation for today's hearings, I ran into a number of references to the accusation being made that the Baha'i, as an organization, are trying to promote Islamophobia and Iranophobia. That was the reason for asking about that language. The point I was trying to make was that I think there's a danger with those terms for that reason.
I would like your comment, if you have anything on it.
Policy Chair, Iranian Canadian Congress
I'll be frank with you; I spend most of my time in Canada. I tangentially know about the Baha'i situation, but I can't really speak on it. As far as the connection with Iranophobia is concerned, I really don't have the expertise, unfortunately. I've been here since I was a child, so it's very difficult for me to speak on that issue. I hope you can accept that answer.
Conservative
Scott Reid Conservative Lanark—Frontenac—Kingston, ON
Of course I can, and thank you very much for your time.
Liberal
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Thank you to both of you for your presentations.
You spoke a little about under-reporting. Part of the work we're trying to do is to see how we can collect the data. Often the data is only collected if it's officially reported to the police, and then it becomes part of the statistics. We've also heard from many witnesses that's not the reality, and we just heard that from you as well. I wonder, to that end, how can we address this issue of under-reporting so that we can collect the real information, the real impact, of discrimination, both on the basis of race and on religious beliefs.
Vice-President, Iranian Canadian Congress
Based on the experience that we've had in the Iranian Canadian Congress for the past few years, the issue with the reporting.... I'm going to start with the banking issue.
Usually we see that people are not comfortable reaching out to officials. That's why they reach out to us first, to consult and get information about that. I'm going to speak based on my own experience.
TD closed my bank accounts and my parents' bank accounts for absolutely no reason, other than we had Iranian names. I was comfortable about speaking out against it. However, I tried to get legal counsel and I noticed that no official legal action could be taken at the time. Even though I took the case to the media, at the end of the day the issue was not resolved. I did not see any governing body overseeing the bank's appropriate.... I'm just telling you this as the story of an individual.
The cases we see in banking nowadays involve a lack of knowledge, as well as fear of reporting. That's why we think that if the government created a hotline for these cases, maybe those hotlines would be able to give more specific information as to how these cases can be elaborated or resolved, or if any action needs to be taken, they can just divert the individuals to appropriate bodies.
With regard to reporting hate-crime cases, I totally agree with you. Technically, based on the reports that were received, if anyone goes to the police, I believe the police do not open a case for that report unless it's an actual threat or a death threat to the individual. If it's not a death threat, it will never be reported and drafted somewhere.
If the government could prepare a hotline for individuals so that they feel they can reach out to those hotlines to report their issues and get consultation, I believe this step could be an opening for these situations as such.
NDP
Jenny Kwan NDP Vancouver East, BC
Thank you for that.
Some of the witnesses who came before us also suggested working collaboratively with NGOs and community groups that are close to particular groups. For example, you indicated you have done surveys. Would you support working with NGOs in the community to collect the data? Would your organization be willing to participate in such a program?