Canadian Heritage Committee on Jan. 29th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

I call this meeting to order.

I'm going to go through a few things before we start. As you know, we were waiting for the minister right now. Due to technical difficulties, we cannot reach him.

I'll update you after I read through these notes about the newer form of how we deal with this version of virtual Parliament.

Welcome to meeting number 12 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a motion adopted by the committee on November 16, 2020, the committee is meeting on its study on the relations between Facebook and the federal government.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of January 25, 2021, and therefore members are attending in person in the room and remotely using Zoom. Proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. The webcast will always show the person speaking rather than the entirety of the committee.

The first meeting, today’s meeting, is also taking place in the new webinar format. Webinars are for public committee meetings and are available only to members, their staff and witnesses. Members may have remarked that the entry to the meeting was much quicker and that they immediately entered as an active participant.

All functionalities for active participants remain the same. Staff will be non-active participants only, and can therefore only view the meeting in gallery view.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants to this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen are not permitted.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations, we are also maintaining practices within this physical room.

For those participating virtually, I would like to outline a few rules as follows.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of “floor”, “English” or “French”. With the latest Zoom version, you may now speak in the language of your choice without the need to select the corresponding language channel, of which I'm sure all of you are aware.

Of course, as I mentioned before, and as you all know, please address all your comments through the chair. Because we are in a virtual format such as this, let's be careful. I ask that if you are asking questions, please mention the person to whom you are asking the question. It makes things a lot easier, given the virtual format.

I've just been told that the minister is online, so let's go to our first guest.

Minister Guilbeault, I'm glad to see you. You have five minutes.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Minister of Canadian Heritage]

Thank you very much. My apologies for the lateness of my arrival. It seems that events are conspiring against my participation in this committee meeting. We had a fire alarm where I am right now, so we had to exit the building.

That being said, we actually explored the possibility of my joining by phone outside. That was technologically complicated, it seems.

I am joining you from Montreal, on the traditional territory of the Mohawk and Haudenosaunee peoples.

I want to start by acknowledging that, four years ago today, a gunman took the lives of six people at the Quebec City mosque and seriously injured 19 others. They were Muslim fathers, husbands, loved ones and friends. Their sudden and tragic deaths were heartbreaking not just for their families, but also for Muslim communities around the world and all Canadians.

Mr. Chair, I am very happy to be appearing before you again today.

With me is the deputy minister of Canadian Heritage, Hélène Laurendeau; as well as Jean-Stéphen Piché, senior assistant deputy minister.

The pandemic continues to weigh heavily on Canada's heritage, arts, culture and sport communities. We are all committed to helping them get through the crisis and supporting them in their recovery.

I want to thank the committee for pursuing it's important work despite the difficult circumstances. Your study on the challenges faced by the arts, culture, heritage and sport sectors caused by COVID-19 will be a valuable asset in these efforts. Canadian Heritage was pleased to participate.

I would also like to acknowledge the excellent work you have done on Bill C-5, which seeks to establish the National Day of Truth and Reconciliation as a statutory holiday.

When we met for the main and supplementary budget estimates review, I had just tabled Bill C-10, an act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other acts. It will be referred to your committee shortly, and we will welcome your input on this legislation as well.

As I indicated before the holidays, I look forward to better understanding your perspectives and how the bill could be improved.

Like many Canadians, our government is concerned about the current imbalance that favours the web giants at the expense of Canadian businesses. The economic and social stakes resulting from this situation are too important for us to stand idly by.

That is why the Speech from the Throne mentioned that things must change to ensure more equitable sharing of revenues with our Canadian creators and media.

Mr. Chair, our government is committed to regulating digital platforms and putting them to work for Canadians. One of the objectives of Bill C-10 is to require those platforms to invest in our creators, our music and our stories, which could lead to more than $800 million of additional money being invested here in Canada every year.

This bill has been positively received by the community and stakeholders. I must share the credit for this success with the employees of Canadian Heritage, as it would not have been possible without their supporting work. I would like to salute their expertise and professionalism. As you know, it is up to elected officials to lead the development of public policy, and our government has been very clear on how we want to tackle social media platforms and web giants. The Canadian Heritage team is providing excellent evidence-based support in this regard.

Our government will also complement these efforts by levelling the playing field on the tax front, as we proposed in the 2020 fall economic statement. Digital businesses will now be required to collect and remit the GST. We will also ensure that digital corporations pay their fair share of taxes in respect of their activities in Canada.

I must also note that we are currently studying a made-in-Canada formula to ensure fair remuneration of news publishers by online platforms, similar to what you might have seen move ahead in certain other countries.

We have seen during the pandemic that digital platforms are more than ever at the heart of communications between Canadians, and are keeping us connected. Unfortunately, some Internet users are also exploiting these platforms maliciously to spread hate, racism and child pornography. There is currently illegal content being uploaded and shared online, to the detriment of Canadians and our society. This is simply unacceptable.

My apologies, Mr. Chair, but I'm having some technical problems.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Could you do a quick summary, Minister? We're just closing in on your time right now.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

I'm going to stop here. I'm sure I'll be able to tell whatever I need to tell as I answer questions from my colleagues from the House.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Minister, for those opening remarks.

We're now going to questions.

I believe Mr. Louis is up first, for the Liberals.

Mr. Louis, you have seven minutes.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I don't think it's the Liberals' turn.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Oh, I'm sorry, it's the Conservatives. I apologize.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I believe it is the Conservatives' turn.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

It's also six minutes, not seven, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Right, I know. I'm sorry, I confused this with the last one.

Go ahead, Mr. Rayes. Are you up for six minutes?

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to ask questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Before I get to my questions, I would like to thank the minister, as well as the senior officials with him today, for making time to meet with the committee for its study—a study on the possible ties between Facebook and their department, a study that must be completed quickly. We found out that an email was sent. It has raised questions, so your being here will help us get clarity on the situation, I have no doubt.

I want to take this opportunity, Minister, to discuss the last time you appeared before the committee. On November 5, I asked you a fairly simple question. I wanted to know how your department had arrived at the calculation that an additional $830 million would be invested in Canadian content, both televised and digital, by 2023. You were here with your senior officials then, as well, and you seemed to say that it was fairly simple information to provide us with. You even shared it publicly on Tout le monde en parle, in front of a large audience.

It would appear, then, that the information is known. At any rate, calculations were done to arrive at the figure, and yet, in my various meetings with major players in the digital and TV world, I realized that no one seemed to understand the math behind the figure.

On December 7, we still hadn't heard back from you or your department. The committee, including your fellow Liberals, adopted a unanimous resolution, calling on you again to make the information available to us. As you know, we are starting a prestudy on Monday. There was agreement across the board, despite the fact that the debate on Bill C-10 is still under way in the House. As I see it, the information is pretty important, if only to ensure transparency. We want to be sure we have all the information available pertaining to the bill—a bill that is giving rise to quite a few questions as we speak.

Next week will mark three months since you told us you would provide us with the information, information you shared publicly without providing details.

Here's my question. Is it possible for us to have the information now?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Yes, absolutely. Thank you for your question.

Perhaps I should turn to Mr. Piché or Ms. Laurendeau, but I believe we can get you the information on the calculation or formula behind the $800-million-plus figure. Either a public servant or someone from the department could appear before the committee, or we could provide the information in writing. I should also point out that it's a projection, not an exact figure.

We can certainly provide the information to the committee. You're right that it's entirely appropriate to share the information with the committee members.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

If I may say, Minister, the information is known, and according to you, it's appropriate for us to have it. That is exactly what you said on November 5, when you looked to your senior officials, who claimed that it wouldn't be too complicated to get the information to us.

That was three months ago. We then asked you again by way of a unanimous motion on December 7. That was nearly two months ago, and we still do not have the information. Can we expect to have this important information in hand by Monday, before we begin our prestudy? You, yourself, said it's one of the key elements of the bill you brought forward.

The representatives of the organizations we've consulted are all wondering where the figure came from; none of them are able to work it out, so they have concerns. It would be a good idea to take some of the pressure off before we even start the prestudy.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Ms. Laurendeau, Mr. Piché, could one of you round out my answer to Mr. Rayes?

[Hélène Laurendeau, Deputy Minister, Department of Canadian Heritage]

I would say two things.

First, we have nothing to hide when it comes to how we came up with the modelling behind the figure.

Second, I defer to Mr. Piché, but I think it might be helpful for the committee to receive an oral explanation to go along with the documentation. Forwarding the documents without providing further details could lead to confusion, so it might be helpful if we could provide the committee with not only the documentation it has requested, but also a clear explanation—similar to technical briefings we've done in the past. That would be with the committee's permission, of course. We would be glad to do that.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Mr. Rayes, I think Mr. Piché can provide you with more information.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

All right.

[Jean-Stéphen Piché, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Cultural Affairs, Department of Canadian Heritage]

The figure was calculated using the assumptions on which the current regime is based. I think we explained that once before when we appeared before the parliamentary committee. Canadian broadcasters have to spend a certain amount, not just in direct contributions to funding, but also in production-related operating funding. According to estimates for a company like Netflix, we can estimate a certain amount will be generated based on a similar figure.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Mr. Piché, sorry to cut you off, but I don't have a lot of time.

You've told us that already. We spoke to the people at those organizations, and the numbers don't add up. The stakeholders don't come up with the same figures.

We asked you, three months ago, for an explanation in writing. You, along with the minister, said yes; you said it was doable. Then, we asked you again by way of a unanimous motion on December 7, and now you are telling us that you can provide the information, but it needs to be supplemented by an explanation. Give us the documentation and come before the committee with an explanation, then. I can assure you we will be very glad to hear what you have to say. It will help us do our work, especially since we are starting the prestudy on Monday.

As I see it, the least you can do is hand over the documentation three months after we asked for it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Rayes.

I've been a little bit generous over the time, so I'm going to have to move on to the next question.

[Alain Rayes, Conservative, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

I apologize to everybody. I do have the right list now.

Mrs. Bessette, it's your turn for six minutes.

[Lyne Bessette, Liberal, Brome—Missisquoi, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here today. As you said in your opening statement, six worshippers who gathered for evening prayers at the Quebec City mosque lost their lives four years ago today. I want to offer my sincerest condolences to the families of the victims.

The heinous crime was motivated by Islamophobia and xenophobia. Soon after we learned that the perpetrator had been radicalized on social media. As we all know, Canadians using digital platforms are often exposed to content that promotes hate, violence, extremism and even radicalization.

Since your mandate letter calls on you to create new regulations for social media platforms and since you said you would be introducing corresponding legislation in the House soon, I would appreciate a progress report on the very important work the government is doing to protect Canadians online.