Canadian Heritage Committee on March 8th, 2021

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

You are committing that you will work to even that out, I guess, so that we are not funding big companies at the expense of our local media, which are having to close their doors because of this unfair competition.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

We've already started working on that.

As I said, this year's numbers, once they become available and they've been compiled, will show that we've started changing that trend, but the issue is not resolved. I'm the first one to admit that.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'm going to follow up a little bit on my colleague Mr. Champoux.

Mr. Ripley earlier today told us that the CRTC will not be able to change the direction on the ineligibility of non-Canadians to licences, which protects, of course, Canadian ownership of Canadian media. I still don't quite understand. Why give up protecting Canadian ownership of conventional broadcasters through the act? Why is it not possible to take into account both the commercial reality of foreign online businesses and the protection of Canadian ownership of conventional broadcasters through the act?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

As Mr. Ripley explained earlier, we're not sacrificing the ownership of Canadian broadcasters. We're not. That's simply not the case.

What we're doing, through those modifications in the proposed bill, is ensuring that Canadian laws and regulations can apply to online platforms, which they can't right now. If we don't create a space in the bill to do that, how can we apply our laws and regulations to them? If we don't do that, then this whole discussion about that additional $830 million for Canadian culture will never be able to manifest itself.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Chair, I'll pass it back to you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

Now we will go to our second round with Mr. Waugh.

Mr. Waugh, go ahead, please.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you.

Welcome, Minister, from Montreal, and your officials. Thank you, one and all, for being here today.

It was interesting. I was listening to your conversation about moving money out of the platforms and into Canadian media, yet rural newspapers in this country are getting less and less money from your government. It wasn't long ago that John Hinds, who was the CEO of Newspapers Canada, had a blank page in the Toronto Star, The Globe and Mail and other papers in this country, complaining about this. They're in deep trouble because of Facebook, Google and so on. We had Kevin Chan, as you know, in committee saying that it's no problem, that they're actually aiding them instead of hampering them. Could I get your comments on that?

We deal with newspapers out west. Even during the COVID pandemic, the Winnipeg Free Press got only two ads from you talking about COVID-19. I fail to see where you're putting money into newspapers and local media.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

It may have only been two ads—and we would have to verify that—but under the Harper government, it would have been zero ads, so I guess two is better than zero. That's the first thing I would say.

The second thing I would say is that we have provided close to $800 million of funding since budget 2019 to help Canadian media through this crisis.

The third thing I would say, which I said in my remarks initially, is that we are working on a bill. Broadcasting is not the same as media, but I'm on record many times as saying that I'm in favour of fair compensation for Canadian media by web giants like Facebook and Google. I therefore respectfully disagree with Mr. Chan's comments publicly or to this committee. At Canada's initiative, we have started an international coalition of countries working together to do just that, with Australia, Germany, France, Finland and, soon enough, many others. I don't think we've been passive on this. We've been very proactive.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Yes, 2020 was a rough year for many organizations, and I think many of them want to thank you for the $500 million your department put forward in 2020.

I think you've already done over $300 million this year, but in saying that, the reality remains that the budget at Canadian Heritage, as I see it, is unprecedented, and it's at an unsustainable level.

Are there any plans in your department right now to get spending back to more normal levels in the future once this pandemic is over?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

My apologies.

Go ahead.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

We've had a pretty wide-ranging conversation until now, but this seems far afield from Bill C-10 at this point. I was wondering if we could bring it back to a conversation about the modernization of the Broadcasting Act.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Ms. Dabrusin, thank you very much for that. You are correct. The last two questions—or the last two questioners—and certainly the last 10 minutes have been somewhat far afield about some of the issues that we have addressed, and they were in the first round as well.

I normally like to give my colleagues the time they deserve within their allotted time, and I tend to give them a lot of freedom. As you know, for example, in estimates, we can talk about pretty much anything in the presence of the minister as long as it pertains to the department.

However, that being said, I would like to remind my colleagues that this certainly is about Bill C-10. Some of this has been tangential to the point where I get it, but some of the other stuff has been, as Ms. Dabrusin pointed out, far afield.

Can we please bring it back, whether it be at the core of Bill C-10 or tangentially at Bill C-10, for the sake of the legislation we are studying?

Mr. Waugh, you have about two minutes to conclude.

Thank you, Ms. Dabrusin.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for your comments.

I do need to get a life, as I took part in the CBC regulation at the CRTC in January. I was surprised to know that your government funds CBC to the tune of $1.7 billion. What I found surprising, Minister, is that the British regulator recently capped BBC spending on digital at 10%. I don't know if you know it, but CBC is at 20% and rising in this country. They're taking money away from CBC Radio, in fact, as TV is number one, followed by their digital platform.

Is this the way, as Mr. Ripley said in his report in the last hour, for broadcasters to better compete against the digital monopoly the CBC seems to have in this country?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Where to start? CBC does not have a monopoly. There are plenty of other broadcasters across the country, both on radio and on television. I think what CBC is doing in terms of moving some content online is what a number of broadcasters are doing.

We could be talking about Bell Media. We could be talking about Quebecor. This is because more and more users.... I know for a fact that my kids don't listen to the radio as I do and certainly don't read newspapers—paper copies—like I do. That's not how they get their information. I think what the CBC is doing is a reflection of what pretty much everybody in the market is doing.

What we're trying to do with Bill C-10 is to ensure that Canadian broadcasters, Canadian producers of culture and artists get their fair share out of this transformation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Housefather, you have five minutes, please.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

My questions will be about Bill C-10, but before that, I want to tell the minister I really appreciated his presentation. I would like to ask him to think about the proposed cuts at Radio Canada International that are about to come up. I hope the minister is looking at that. I think those cuts are problematic.

I can't wait to see the minister when he comes forward with regulations related to removal of illegal content from online platforms.

I listened to Mr. Rayes and Monsieur Champoux.

I, too, am concerned about the lack of precision, in the proposed text, about original French content. I was very pleased to hear the minister say that he would give careful consideration to any amendments that might be proposed by the committee.

Also, I am concerned about the issue of content for official language minority communities.

One of the things, Mr. Minister, that we heard before the committee was a concern from francophone groups outside Quebec and English-speaking groups in Quebec that almost all the French content in Canada today comes from Quebec, almost all the English content comes from outside Quebec, and very little French content is produced outside Quebec and very little English content now in Quebec.

Would you, Mr. Minister, be accepting of some amendments to the bill that we may put forward that would deal with the preoccupations of the official-language minority communities?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Housefather, for your intervention and your questions.

We don't get to revise a bill like the broadcasting bill every other day of the week—it's been 30 years. If we're doing it now let's try to make it the best possible bill that it can be and resolve as many issues as possible. So of course I would be happy to contemplate changes that would improve it even more.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

It is very important to have original French content produced in Canada, but it is also important to encourage the creation of English content both in Quebec and elsewhere in Canada. I wish we could find common ground on that.

Independent media producers have come before the committee to talk about their concerns about the way that Netflix, for example, buys up their intellectual property. They have talked about a U.K. system whereby the regulator is encouraged to allow for heads of terms to be a type of form agreement between independent media producers and large broadcasters and online companies like Netflix.

Would you be willing, Mr. Minister, to consider an amendment that required the regulator to look at that question?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Obviously, intellectual property is a very important aspect of Canadian production, not just in Canada. It's an important aspect of cultural productions all around the world and it's certainly top of mind.

We've had numerous conversations. I've met with independent producers a number of times over the course of the last year and a half. I've heard their concerns, I've heard their ideas, and we are looking at how best, through the modification of the Broadcasting Act, we can help foster intellectual property so it serves Canadian artists and Canadian companies as best as possible. That's what we're working toward.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I really appreciate that, and I do hear what you said before about how the history of regulations and the history of CRTC actions has protected many things that we're concerned about today. But of course this is the one chance that legislators have to actually direct the regulator and I think we need to be cognizant of it.

Mr. Minister, we've heard from a wide variety of groups and one thing that I think we've heard relatively universally is how important it is to put these changes into effect as soon as possible. Whether or not they want amendments to the bill, most groups still say they want this bill to come into effect quickly.

Do you have any words to encourage the committee on timeline?

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Yes, that's a really important point. I've said it earlier, we are a minority government. The reality of minority government in the British parliamentary system is that they don't tend to last very long. I think we do have a shot at being able to adopt this bill and it's not me saying it. A number of organizations you've met have said that this was a groundbreaking bill. Someone called it historic.

Let's work together and get this adopted as soon as possible. I'm not saying we have to cut corners or shortchange anything, but let's work together to try to get this done. If we do that, I think we'll all be able to go home and say we've helped Canadian artists; we've helped Canadian culture come into the next century.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Champoux, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, earlier we were talking about how much latitude you want to give the CRTC.

An article published Friday in Playback magazine reports on the CRTC's Let's Talk TV process, which I'm sure you're familiar with. It's a series of consultations that took place in 2014. It says that since that time, discretionary services, that is, those not taxed in TV packages, have seen a 20% decline among independent broadcasters, while on the cable side, they have seen a roughly similar increase. This example illustrates the importance of guiding the decisions to be made by the CRTC.

I share the concern with respect to community television and radio, which are somewhat overlooked in the bill.

I would like to hear some of your thoughts on that.

[Steven Guilbeault, Liberal, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

The phenomenon you mention is obviously related to the advent of platforms and the very significant upheaval we have seen in the broadcasting world in Canada and elsewhere in the world. That is why this bill is important; it will regulate what is done online. Obviously, it will regulate the online activities of the Web giants, but it will also regulate the online activities of Canadian businesses.