Canadian Heritage Committee on March 12th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you very much, Mr. Champoux.

Now we'll go to the NDP, with Ms. McPherson, for six minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you very much to all of our witnesses for joining us today. This is very interesting.

One of the witnesses we haven't heard too much from is Mr. Lewis.

Mr. Lewis, I'm curious as to why IATSE wanted to be here. Can you speak to that, please?

[John Lewis, International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees, Motion Picture Association-Canada]

Thank you for letting me speak today to ensure that the voice of the majority of film and television workers is heard. That's why I am here today.

The IA is the largest union in the entertainment industry, representing over 150,000 creatives across North America, including 30,000 in Canada. We are the behind-the-scenes creatives such as cinematographers, costume designers, scenic artists, makeup artists and special effects technicians.

We must address changes to the Broadcasting Act from a sense of confidence and optimism. Our industry is booming. We are thriving, not because of content quotas and regulatory restrictions, but because we are good. Our infrastructure is world class, and our creative talent is world class. Even in the face of the global pandemic, our film and television industry has burst back to match historic highs, which would not have been possible without serious deliberation and co-operation to ensure cast and crew are safe when working.

The IA supports the need for a flexible approach to create a modern broadcast policy and allowing the CRTC to use its expertise to fashion appropriate mechanisms to support the entire industry because, at the end of the day, a healthy industry requires a thriving domestic and foreign sector. They complement each other; they don't compete with each other.

We are not opposed to foreign streamers contributing to the domestic industry—we believe they should—but when determining that contribution, we would ask this committee to consider the full scope of their contributions. Foreign streamers make direct investments in producing content in Canada. As recently reported, since 2017 Netflix alone has spent $2.5 billion employing Canadian creative talent. That is tens of thousands of Canadian jobs.

In 2018-19, the foreign service industry was the largest single component of productions employing Canadian creative talent, which my organization represents, and I am disappointed to hear some commentators complain that foreign service productions do not employ Canadian talent. The vast majority of creative positions on foreign service productions are Canadian, and to suggest otherwise is not supported by the facts. Even worse, it suggests the work of the talented Canadians on Star Trek in Toronto, Deadpool in Vancouver or X-Men in Montreal are not as important and should somehow be discounted. I call that cultural elitism, and it should not inform our policy decisions.

We also hear a lot about the importance of supporting Canadian stories. Canadian stories should not be used interchangeably with Canadian content. Just because something qualifies as Canadian content, does not make it a Canadian story. When a Hallmark movie sets up as a small U.S. town, it qualifies as Canadian, but The Handmaid's Tale or Barkskins in Quebec City did not. We have to rethink the definition of what constitutes a Canadian production, and we are pleased that the proposed act contemplates that the CRTC modernize the definition of Canadian content. Our 10-point system is badly outdated and in need of an overhaul. We also support enhancing the discoverability of Canadian productions on streaming services.

If I could leave with one note of concern from the workers in this industry, it would be do no harm. As well, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Department of Canadian Heritage for its incredible work to support cultural workers during the pandemic. The IA also represents workers in the live-performance industry, and the actions of the federal government have made a difference for thousands of families who have seen their livelihood decimated.

Thank you.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Lewis.

I have one quick follow-up question for you. I appreciate your perspective; I think it's important that we get that perspective from workers. Some of the other concerns we've had raised that align with this were from the Writers Guild of Canada, when they spoke about Canadian writers not being used and making sure they are incorporated into our productions.

Do you have any comment on that?

[John Lewis]

As I said, I think a healthy, thriving industry requires both a strong domestic industry and a foreign sector industry. Years ago, when a lot of U.S. productions first started coming to Canada, they had a higher percentage of U.S. crews coming up and working on those productions, and over time, the number of U.S. crews coming to Canada was greatly reduced. We saw a greater training ability and we saw opportunities that would otherwise not exist for Canadian talent, and the same takes place in the writing room as well. I think it's a tougher battle for the writing room, but one that can be overcome. Again, the flexibility of allowing the CRTC to deal with these issues can address those issues.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you very much, Ms. McPherson.

Ladies and gentlemen, colleagues, we have about eight or nine minutes left. I would ask you for a favour. We're going to go into the second round. I say that because I like doing that, but also because we've asked these guests to come back after we scheduled them several weeks ago and cancelled at the last minute for reasons of democracy.

Can I ask each of my colleagues to please think of one or two questions and try to throw some of that time back to me? I don't want to do one or two parties, and then cut it off. I'd like to include all four parties. I think that's only fair, as colleagues. Can I ask you to be as concise as possible? I will afford the time that is necessary, of course, but hopefully you can help me out.

Okay, let's go to Mr. Aitchison.

Thank you.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have, I think, a fairly quick question for Mr. Péladeau.

I'm hearing over and over again people talking about the difficulties that Canadian broadcasters face, in part because of regulation, and then also because of new streaming content, for example, coming on and not being subject to the same regulation. I tend to agree with your point that easing regulation on traditional broadcasters would be a better approach.

Would you describe the approach of Bill C-10, which, for lack of any real, thoughtful analysis of the situation, simply calls streamers “broadcasters”, as a lazy approach to solving the problem?

[Pierre Karl Péladeau]

Well, I understand that the lawmaker is supposed to regulate. The issue here is, again, not something against American companies that are providing and streaming content to the Canadian public, but about making sure the Canadian broadcasters, and all of the stakeholders of the industry, will be able to continue to compete in a brand new world, in a world where you do not need a licence anymore to broadcast, which is what is taking place. Therefore, I think the broadcasters understand very well their competitive advantages would be that they are Canadian, and they have this sensibility, they have the knowledge of what the Canadian public is looking for.

It doesn't mean that Canadians don't want to watch The Crown on Netflix, it means for Canadian broadcasters that there are some specific stories in Quebec and in the rest of Canada. Those broadcasters know this, and therefore they will address the requirement or the needs of the Canadian population. But if we have over-regulation on top of the purpose of investing at the right place, obviously we're not doing the right thing.

[Scott Aitchison, Conservative, Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

I don't need to go on. I think that's good for me, if you want to move on to the next person, Mr. Chair. I know you're running out of time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

That's very generous. As we say in Newfoundland and Labrador, God love your heart and soul, sir.

All right, let's go to MP Tim Louis for the next round of questioning.

Thank you.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Chair, thank you for helping me learn a new phrase. I will also shorten my time so everyone gets a chance.

I appreciate everyone's time. This has been extremely helpful.

I know Mr. Skolnik mentioned creators and performers in our culture or industry. You used the word “devastating”, and I could not agree more. Digital content more and more is becoming demonetized. For so many consumers, music has become practically free, writing is becoming free, people obtaining videos and images is practically free. We all know that creating art and creating music, those stories, take years of dedication. That requires a means of support. If things aren't going to change, a lot of our art is going to basically cease to be sustainable.

Because of the pandemic, artists are not able to work and perform in congregate settings. By one of my definitions, art brings people together. Therefore we really do need to support creativity more than ever.

I very much appreciate, Mr. Skolnik, your passion in this. I also appreciate that you mentioned our pre-study was important to move things forward in an expedited manner.

I'll get right to the amendments. I'll only talk about one today, which is the amendment you are concerned might reduce the requirement to use Canadian talent and result in broadcasting undertakings no longer having an obligation to use Canadian talent.

How can we enshrine that idea that we want to maintain Canadian content? I know you used a series as an example.

[Bill Skolnik]

First of all, as an aside, you have in your town Centre In The Square, which is one of the great halls in the country, for those of you who don't know. It is a perfect example of where to go to get great acoustics and to record, by the way.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I've gigged on that stage, so yes.

[Bill Skolnik]

Good. So have I.

Anyway, I want to refer back to Wendy and John. I use this phrase: It's not mutually exclusive. Helping one does not take away from the other. We need to take advantage of the fact that we can enhance our own folks with our own talent.

We're worried that the regulations will be lowered to the lowest common denominator, that we need to say they can do this, but if they want to get these benefits, they have to use Canadians and use them all the way through. The market is going to look after a lot of it. You have to sell it whether it's Canadian or not. However, we believe, just as we do with so many regulations in this country, that Canadians must be put forward and Canadians must be part of it. Our amendment should ensure that all aspects consider Canadians, and not just the regular ones. We know that in other jurisdictions, like Latin America, the Disney Channel, for example, is obligated to have local content.

To us, this is not detrimental; it is promotional. We need to continually promote and support it.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, all.

I will cede my time so that everyone else gets a chance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you, Mr. Louis.

Monsieur Champoux.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If everyone were as generous with their time as that, we could have a third round of questions.

I have a question for Ms. Guay. It's one that I asked the previous group of witnesses.

Ms. Guay, do you believe that it's possible to meet the expectations of just about all the industry partners, by which I mean Canadian broadcasters, foreign online companies and the cultural industry?

Do you think that it's possible to find a compromise version of Bill C-10 that would please everyone?

[Nathalie Guay]

Is there a magical solution that will satisfy all the interveners, not all of whom have the same interests? That's a tough one. I'm not convinced that it's the right question. I'm sorry, I don't want to appear to be too critical, but I think that the government...

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

No, it's okay.

[Nathalie Guay]

...has all the legitimacy needed to reach the right decision for our cultural sovereignty. I believe that the context has definitely evolved. Many have pointed that out here today. However, it does not mean that the goals we were defending 30 years ago are no longer applicable today. There are emerging concerns and new players, and it's altogether legitimate to ask them to make a contribution. I think that many of them will benefit. What's important is to make the right decisions today, here and now, for the future of our cultural sovereignty and the future of our culture.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Péladeau, briefly, I'm going to ask you a similar question.

You say you would like fewer requirements to be placed on traditional broadcasters, and then you also say that it's difficult to envisage being able to regulate the Internet and the web giants.

According to your line of thinking, do you believe that there is a way of rescuing everyone involved and that it it's possible to continue to forge ahead without causing harm to the cultural industry?

[Pierre Karl Péladeau]

My opinion may look contradictory, but those who wanted regulation would be better off if it were reduced. Indeed, this new form of regulation might well speed up the disappearance of some players because we will never be able to compete with the streaming companies. The bottom line is that it's a question of money. When you get market capitalization on the scale that I mentioned earlier, it means a lot of power.

[The Chair, Liberal, Scott Simms]

Thank you.

[Pierre Karl Péladeau]

Mr. Skolnik Made an interesting point when he said that Disney was capable of regulating content in North America.