Canadian Heritage Committee on March 29th, 2021

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you.

As you would realize, in nine weeklies—some are digital; some are just paper and some are both—they cover a lot more than just local COVID. They cover the local municipal council, the schools, and all those things that dailies don't cover. Their ask of me is, “We need the advertising.” It's the advertising that they survive on. They don't survive on news articles.

What's your opinion on how the media will survive in my riding of nine weeklies, if they have no advertising dollars and the Canadian government gives it to you?

[Marc Dinsdale]

We certainly appreciate that, and we have seen the challenges created in a world where the advertising market is shifting to different types of solutions. The interesting part to me is, when we look at examples of local news publishers like Village Media, which is, as Kevin pointed out, in 14 different northern Ontario markets, we see that they have been able to build a model that is—

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Sir, I'm interrupting you because I'm talking about weekly newspapers that are independent in only one community. I'm not talking chains. I'm talking about the nine in my riding. They're not chains. They're independent.

What you're referring to, to me, is not local media. That's a chain.

[Marc Dinsdale]

Well, they represent news in 14 communities that range in size from 50 to 150,000 people.

The point I was trying to make, sir, is that the model they have built at Village Media is an interesting one that is probably replicable in more places, in that they have local classifieds, a local automotive section and a local events section, etc., which complement and add base strategy to provide.... What we have to look at—in terms of the previous state of local news and through all of those things—is that the model of a publisher like Village Media shows they've successfully been able to maintain this.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I have very limited time, sir. When that has happened here, the local news disappears. When you have nine involved in one chain, it disappears.

I want to go you, Mr. Chan. You talk about a policy that has to do with what I would call censorship. Would you share that policy with us?

[Kevin Chan]

We publish all of our policies, sir, online. You can read them at facebook.com/communitystandards. Our content policies are called our “community standards” in public.

I thank you, sir, for raising this concern about censorship. Obviously, we are very much mindful of that. Again, the delicate balance that we're trying to strike, sir, is to give people as much ability to express themselves as possible without expressing things that would be physically harmful if practised.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I got that, but who is writing the policy?

[Kevin Chan]

These policies are developed by the global policy team at Facebook and—

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Is there a Canadian component to that?

[Kevin Chan]

Yes, sir. I'm part of that, as is Rachel Curran.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

So that policy has changed and is an ongoing, living document?

[Kevin Chan]

These things do change, sir, based on the realities of people's speech and the way people interact. I would love to let Rachel speak a bit about our consultation process around the world with experts, some of which she has led herself, if that's helpful.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

I'm referring to the Canadian [Technical difficulty—Editor] interested in, if she can refer specifically to how you're developing policy, but you have published it. Could you share it specifically with the committee?

[Rachel Curran, Policy Manager, Facebook Canada, Facebook Inc.]

As Kevin says, our community standards are really the formal expression of our content policy development. That work is constantly under way, and we consult with experts, academics, civil society and citizens in Canada frequently as we develop those content policies, Mr. Shields. Yes, we always try to make sure that we have a Canadian perspective on our content policies and that they work for Canadian users.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

You are part of that committee, and Mr. Chan is part of that committee.

[Rachel Curran]

Yes, we both are.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

How big is the committee?

[Rachel Curran]

Kevin, I don't know how large our global policy team is.

[Kevin Chan]

Sir, I would not necessarily call it a “committee”. I would say that it's a process, to be fair, that—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Alain Rayes]

Thank you.

I am sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Chan.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Alain Rayes]

I now recognize Ms. Dabrusin.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all our witnesses.

This motion to have this hearing today really came on the heels of the decision by Facebook to cut access to news in Australia. I believe, Mr. Chan, that when you've been speaking you've been talking about the importance of public health information and the like. My question for you, though, is, do you think it's an appropriate negotiation strategy with a government to cut access to the news, including public health news, during what is a pandemic?

[Kevin Chan]

Ma'am, thank you for the opportunity to answer that squarely.

I really don't see this as a negotiation, and I don't think we should be seeing it as one. I mean, it was really a response to a framework that wasn't going to be workable. If Facebook had continued to offer news on Facebook in Australia, the framework would have required us to enter into a binding arbitration process with publishers by virtue of having things on our platform that we didn't control.

That was not sustainable, and it would not be sustainable, I would submit to you, to any organization. It certainly is inconsistent with the idea of a free and open Internet. Our unfortunate response to an unworkable piece of legislation that was not based on the facts was that we had to exit the market, and that's what happened.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Some people would argue that Facebook is too large and needs to be broken up, and that its ability to cut off access to news and public health information is too vast.

Don't you believe that cutting off the news in Australia as a response to government legislation supports the argument that Facebook has become too large?