Canadian Heritage Committee on March 29th, 2021

[Kevin Chan]

Again, as I've said elsewhere, that is not something that Marc or I or Rachel are working towards. We're working towards, and again I take it back to my opening statement.... We're working very hard and collaboratively with news publishers every day. We talked about the Winnipeg Free Press and The Globe and Mail. We talked about Village Media. Publishers will—

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Some will be left out, right? Some will be left out on this.

[Kevin Chan]

Mr. Waugh, our concern with Australia was very much that the framework, it appeared, was going to help only the big media conglomerates.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Rupert Murdoch—his empire over there—was the one who got the agreement going, right?

[Kevin Chan]

I defer to your judgment on that, sir.

We're very much concerned with a framework that wouldn't allow us to support local news publishers. While the future of news will involve all sorts of players, big and small, we are obviously sensitive to the fact that there are new models emerging and that these independent and small news publishers need to be supported. You've seen some of the programs we've announced that are designed to address exactly that point.

We're also pleased that, in Australia, the amended code allows us to now enter into agreements with small publishers and to pursue some of those ends.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

From France to Australia, who got the better deal?

[Kevin Chan]

I'm sorry. What do you mean by that?

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Didn't you also have an agreement with news media in France? Both countries were [Technical difficulty—Editor]. Of course, in terms of Australia, you've made a few agreements with their news media, as you've said. How about France? How can you compare the two, and how should Canadians compare with France and Australia when this gets rectified in this country?

[Kevin Chan]

Marc, you're closer to this than I am. I don't know if you have a thought on that.

[Marc Dinsdale]

The principle, no matter where it is, is the same in terms of the mechanisms we're seeking and the ways in which we can support media, and we're going to continue to do this in creative ways in Canada.

It points to each jurisdiction being very different, so when we hear of a made-in-Canada solution, we completely echo that, because nothing is necessarily transportable or comparable in that way.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

That's good. Thanks.

That's it for me, Mr. Chair. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Alain Rayes]

Thank you, Mr. Waugh.

According to my list, the last person to speak is Mr. Housefather.

Mr. Housefather, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chan, when you last appeared before the committee on January 29, I asked you if Facebook controls my news feed. You replied, “No, sir,” and said I can only see content from pages I positively connect to.

There was a BuzzFeed article on February 21, 2021, which spoke of a Facebook feature called “in feed recommendations”, which is designed to insert posts into users' feeds from accounts they do not follow. It said Facebook users had complained they were seeing posts from conservative personalities such as Ben Shapiro in their news feed, even though they had never engaged with that type of content.

Does the “in feed recommendations” feature actually exist? If so, isn't that different from what you told me in January?

[Kevin Chan]

This is a recommendation engine. We're very public about it. We've had a post about this for some time now. We can send that to you as well, sir, so you can read up on how that works.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'm interested to know.... Obviously you are aware of the Moonshot redirection method that they're using with Google, whereby they redirect users who conduct searches for harmful material to ads that would take them to positive alternative content. Does Facebook use any such technology, either with Moonshot or with anyone else?

[Kevin Chan]

Yes, we do.

Right now, if you were to search on Facebook or Instagram—and I know you've spoken with Rachel about this as well—for the Holocaust, for child exploitation or for COVID, in all those cases, we redirect. For COVID, most importantly, we redirect to the Public Health Agency of Canada. That's why we have this partnership.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

That is excellent, and I praised you for that the last time. I've been tough on you today, but some things you do are very good. I also want to commend you for that, specifically Ms. Curran for her openness in chatting with me through stuff.

In terms of the redirection, though, you're aware of the report that Moonshot erroneously redirected people searching for far-right content to an anarchist, in a joint project done in the United States with the Anti-Defamation League. How do you make sure that when using those third party providers, that isn't happening? Is it audited by anybody?

[Kevin Chan]

We partner directly with the organization. That's why we need to be absolutely clear.

For example, during an election, we might partner with Elections Canada, as we have in the last two federal elections, to redirect directly back to the URL that Elections Canada has provided. That's also why you have a public policy team in Canada, to make sure we are able to work collaboratively and to make sure we get the right information to Canadians.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I don't want to diminish the role of the public policy team in Canada. With respect to certain issues, it's incredibly important, and you guys do great work. I want to again commend Facebook for what it did in the last U.S. election.

In the last U.S. election, it should be known [Technical difficulty—Editor] million dollars for election integrity. Facebook created an excellent election information centre. It caused millions of people to register to vote, and it found poll workers. Facebook invested an enormous amount of money to protect the election integrity in the United States.

Given that the population of Canada is one-tenth that of the United States, can you confirm that Facebook will be willing to spend one-tenth in Canada of what it spent in the United States to protect our election integrity in the next election?

[Kevin Chan]

That is a good question. I would submit to you that, again, we have a global framework for these things. We apply the same infrastructure around the world.

Don't take my word for it. The media, academics and the government itself have said there was no material interference in the last election. That was very good to see.

Rachel and I and others are building out the team for the next election, whenever that may come. You have our assurances that we will do all that we need to do to protect—

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Alain Rayes]

On those kind words, Mr. Chan, I must interrupt you. You are announcing that you and your team will be stepping up your work for the upcoming elections. The entire population will be very grateful.

I thank our three witnesses, who spent a good two hours with us.

Mr. Chan, Mr. Dinsdale, and Ms. Curran, thank you very much for coming today. We have successfully completed all four rounds. I congratulate all of my colleagues, who were willing to be rigorous about the time allotted to them to ask questions.

Before I end this meeting, as this is my first time chairing the committee, I would like to thank the clerk, Ms. Belmore, and her entire team, who have been with me since Friday to prepare for the meeting. They provided me with all the necessary documents and information. I also thank the analysts, interpreters and technicians for their very thorough work. Finally, I thank my colleagues for their indulgence with me today.

Before we end the meeting, I yield the floor to Mr. Champoux, who has raised his hand.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to thank the witnesses. In fact, I would find it really disappointing if we did not take advantage of your first time as chair of a committee to debate motions. I would like to give you the full experience.

Colleagues, two weeks ago I told you that I had filed notices of motion for two motions, and I invited you to let me know if you had any questions—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Alain Rayes]

Mr. Champoux, please wait a moment.

I would like to tell the witnesses that they can leave the meeting if they want to, unless the clerk tells us otherwise. I thank our three witnesses for attending.

[Kevin Chan]

Thank you very much.