Evidence of meeting #27 for Canadian Heritage in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Thomas Owen Ripley  Director General, Broadcasting, Copyright and Creative Marketplace, Department of Canadian Heritage
Philippe Méla  Legislative Clerk
Drew Olsen  Senior Director, Marketplace and Legislative Policy, Department of Canadian Heritage
Kathy Tsui  Manager, Industrial and Social Policy, Broadcasting, Copyright and Creative Marketplace Branch, Department of Canadian Heritage

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Folks, welcome back. We are still on clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-10.

Most of you now must know the rules, of course. For those of you who are listening outside and for whom this is your first time joining us, welcome. This is Canadian democracy at its best. We go clause by clause through the bill. We've had some amendments thus far, and we're continuing.

I'll get to that in just a moment, but just as a reminder to everybody about the way we do this, if you hear us talking about letters and numbers, those are for the particular amendments put forward by each group with us at the committee. In other words, if you hear us say, “PV-1”, that would be a Parti Vert—Green Party—amendment. We have CPC ones, which would be from the Conservative members on the committee; LIB would be from the Liberal members, BQ from the Bloc Québécois, and NDP amendments come from the New Democrats. Finally, G amendments, as in G-1 or G-2, would be amendments from the government.

Are there any questions before we start? Are there any issues? I'm going to start this one fairly quickly, since I think we know most of the machinations that happen.

I'll get to our guests from the department later, but I will say thank you again for joining us.

I want to say all the best to everyone. I hope you have a safe week, no matter where you are.

Let's get back to the business at hand. We will go back to clause-by-clause study.

(On clause 6)

We are currently at—and this is a newer version of what we had before—amendment BQ-15(N), so we go to the new page and BQ-15(N).

I am going to Mr. Champoux.

11 a.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

In amendment BQ-15(N), we want to retain a regime of conditions of licence and to prevent any relaxing of the regulatory framework.

We're also proposing provisions to establish registration categories for online undertakings. We obviously aren't talking about the same conditions of licence as for conventional broadcasting undertakings. We think registration categories for online undertakings would be entirely appropriate in facilitating the CRTC's efforts to oversee the broadcasting system.

To establish registration categories for online undertakings, we must obviously be able to determine the term of the registration's validity, whether fixed or indeterminate. We must also be able to renew licences in the same way and for the same terms. Lastly, we have to be able to regulate undertakings, which means having the power to suspend or revoke an undertaking's registration if it fails to comply with conditions of service.

I'm prepared to discuss this.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Ms. Dabrusin.

April 26th, 2021 / 11 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

My grave concern with this proposal is with its overbreadth, that it would simply cover all of the Internet in the end, rather than only the ones that have the larger impact that we would be concerned about. Everyone would be required to register in the first instance.

Perhaps the department can help to clarify what the impact of this amendment would be. How broad would its scope be for requiring registrations?

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

We'll go to Mr. Ripley, and then we'll go to Mr. Champoux after.

11:05 a.m.

Thomas Owen Ripley Director General, Broadcasting, Copyright and Creative Marketplace, Department of Canadian Heritage

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and good morning everybody.

If I understand the amendment correctly, perhaps I'd comment on two elements of it.

The first element relates to reintroducing the idea that there could be conditions of licence that take the form of contributing to the policy objectives of the act. This is similar to a Green Party amendment that we spoke about on Friday.

To perhaps recap, Bill C-10 seeks to move away from a regime whereby the expenditure contributions that broadcasting entities are required to make are contained within their licence, which is their actual authorization to operate.

Instead, as I think the committee is aware, Bill C-10 creates new order-making powers for the CRTC in clause 9.1, and new regulation-making powers. Those order-making and regulation-making powers are meant to substitute for the old conditions of licence.

If you look at the wording of clause 9.1, for example—the order-making powers—you will see that they are able to apply to a category or a class of undertaking, but they're also able to apply to an individual undertaking if the need requires. Just as in the old world when you had a condition of licence and maybe you needed a unique condition of licence specific to one company, the CRTC still has that power at clause 9.1.

The concern would be that if the committee reintroduces the idea of conditions of service, it muddies the waters about the type of instrument that should be used to impose conditions on companies. Moving forward, not only would a company potentially be subject to regulation and relevant orders, but it could also be subject to additional requirements specific to their conditions of licence.

We heard from Mr. Manly on Friday that one of his concerns related to the idea of enforcement. How do you know that companies are actually meeting the requirements of their licence? This generally waits until the renewal of the licence. Bill C-10 outlines a different vision whereby, as we outlined, companies would be subject to an administrative monetary penalty where they're not in compliance. The idea behind that is the CRTC takes a much more active, regular enforcement stand vis-à-vis broadcasters.

The idea behind Bill C-10 is that broadcasters shouldn't have to wait until the renewal of their licence to be able to go to the CRTC and say that a company is not compliant. Rather, Bill C-10 outlines a perspective that you should be able to go to the commission and say that a broadcaster is not meeting their requirements and the CRTC would be able to do an investigation on that right away.

The second piece relates to the registration requirements. Perhaps I would just indicate on this one that Bill C-10 took the stance that registration is not intended to be permission to operate in Canada.

Once again, Bill C-10 starts to regulate various online undertakings—various Internet-based companies—and the government was very clear that it didn't want to set the CRTC up as a gatekeeper before a company could launch its business online. The CRTC would have the ability to say yes or no. That stance goes against the idea of an open and free Internet. On the registration regime contemplated by Bill C-10, I would remind the committee that at paragraph 10(1)(i), the CRTC can make regulations respecting the registration of broadcasting undertakings in Canada. That was intended to essentially facilitate them knowing the contact information and the way to get in touch with these companies. It was not intended to be substituted for a permission to operate in Canada.

My understanding, based on what Mr. Champoux outlined, is that, if the idea is to suspend or revoke a registration or something like that, it seems to be setting the CRTC up much more for a gatekeeper role with a permission to operate. That would have implications for a free and open Internet and the ability for online undertakings to offer their services without first having to go and seek permission from the CRTC.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Thank you, Mr. Ripley.

Mr. Housefather.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Mr. Chair, I read the amendment. I am opposed to this amendment completely because I think this is a broad overreach. It is essentially regulating all of the Internet. It's going to kill small businesses. It seems to say that every website would have to register with the CRTC, no matter how small. I think this just goes too far.

To the department, given the excessive amount of power that seems to be given to the CRTC here, is there any other country that you're aware of that would have such an overreaching scope of regulation on the Internet, if this were adopted the way it is now?

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

I'm going to Mr. Ripley and then Mr. Champoux.

Mr. Ripley.

11:10 a.m.

Director General, Broadcasting, Copyright and Creative Marketplace, Department of Canadian Heritage

Thomas Owen Ripley

Thank you for the question, Mr. Housefather.

As far as I'm aware, when we look at comparator countries, liberal democracies, the answer to that would be no. Those countries that are, like Canada, moving forward with broadcasting regulation that seeks to include streaming activities within its scope.... When you look at the EU, for example, there is a recognition in those jurisdictions as well that the business model between a conventional broadcaster that traditionally has to hold a licence and the business model of streaming services is different.

Bill C-10 seeks to ensure a level playing field, a more fair system and have these players contribute, but Bill C-10 was very intentional about not extending a licensing model to Internet-based companies.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Mr. Champoux.

11:10 a.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Many things have been said, and they've triggered many reactions. I'll try to be brief.

First of all, with respect to the question that Mr. Housefather just asked Mr. Ripley, I'd like to say that we haven't always felt compelled to wait for other countries before taking action. In 1999, we decided to exclude online undertakings from regulation. That resulted in the mess we found ourselves in for years thereafter and the unfair system in which our Canadian actors were forced to try to survive. Now we're trying to regulate what we didn't regulate 20 years ago. I think we have a responsibility to do that without being forced to wait for an inspirational model to emerge somewhere in the world. Let's do something on our own for once, based on what we want to put in place. I think we have a duty to do that.

Now, as regards the registration of undertakings, I understand that we have concerns about what the CRTC may want to regulate. That's why we're proposing that it be given the authority to establish categories. I'm not saying all undertakings must be subject to registration. The CRTC would have the power to establish categories.

Incidentally, our amendment BQ-16, which we'll discuss later, would provide that an undertaking that doesn't have a significant effect on the Canadian broadcasting system would not have to be subject to registration, and that decision could be reviewed in the event the undertaking in question began to have a more significant effect on the Canadian broadcasting system.

We'll be introducing amendment BQ-34 later on, and I hope we have a chance to get there during this week's debates. Under that amendment, an online undertaking would be allowed to operate without a licence, without registering and without being exempted by the CRTC from the obligation to hold a licence or to register. That would obviously apply to undertakings that don't have a significant effect on the Canadian broadcasting system.

I think we also have a duty to bring fairness to the market in which our Canadian broadcasting undertakings, both conventional and online, operate. The idea here is not to prevent free Internet services; we're talking about our broadcasting system, which foreign online players are entering. Foreign undertakings that come and operate here, in our broadcasting system, which I think has characteristics that are unique in the world, must abide by the rules we put in place. We have to establish rules, not to please those undertakings, but to ensure we have a system that's fair for all participating players.

That's why I think amendment BQ-15 is entirely appropriate.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Ms. Dabrusin.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I'm very concerned by the fact that this would end up regulating all of the Internet. When I'm listening to what the department said, I'm concerned about the over-regulation of small businesses, and as much as we're trying to work through this bill to try to bring in web giants, the plan isn't for us to regulate all of the Internet. That is not the intention. It just seems, as I mentioned, to be a great overbreadth of the powers that we intend to give to the CRTC and where we intend to go with this, so I oppose this and am very uncomfortable with the scope of this amendment.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Go ahead, Mr. Rayes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to make sure my understanding is correct. Today we're starting a new meeting, but I thought we had already begun to discuss amendment BQ-15. Is proposed paragraph 9(1)(g) still included in the amendment? Has it been withdrawn? Do we have to decide on that? I'm confused. It's important that we determine what's what because that paragraph is a very important part of the amendment. Some clarification would assist us in making a decision.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Okay. I see.

Do you wish to respond, Mr. Champoux?

11:15 a.m.

Bloc

Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC

We're discussing amendment BQ-15(N). Actually, it's amendment BQ-15, but it has already been amended. We removed the initially proposed paragraph 9(1)(g), which was designed to provide a framework for contract practices. The new amendment BQ-15(N) doesn't include that idea.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Go ahead, Mr. Rayes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for the officials on this point. What, in their view, is the consequence of withdrawing paragraph 9(1)(g) as initially proposed in the amendment?

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

I'm looking for a volunteer.

Mr. Ripley.

11:15 a.m.

Director General, Broadcasting, Copyright and Creative Marketplace, Department of Canadian Heritage

Thomas Owen Ripley

Thank you for your question, Mr. Rayes.

From what I understand, the initial amendment provided that the CRTC would have authority to regulate contract practices. That would definitely have affected the bill because it currently doesn't provide for that power to be granted to the CRTC.

The withdrawal of this initially proposed paragraph obviously alters the scope of the amendment proposed by Mr. Champoux. However, as I just explained, the idea of conditions of licence is being reintroduced in order to contribute to Canadian broadcasting policy. There's also the registration element.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

I see no further conversation or debate, so we'll now go to a vote.

Once again, I will ask for it to carry, and if I hear silence, it will be carried. If I hear a “no”, I will go to a vote unless otherwise instructed to do it on division. You can say, “on division”, which means carried on division, or “no” or “negatived, on division”.

We will vote on amendment BQ-15(N).

Shall amendment BQ-15(N) carry?

11:15 a.m.

Some hon. members

No.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

We'll have a recorded vote, Madam Clerk.

(Amendment negatived: nays 9; yeas 2 [See Minutes of Proceedings])