Evidence of meeting #39 for Canadian Heritage in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Aimée Belmore
Thomas Owen Ripley  Director General, Broadcasting, Copyright and Creative Marketplace Branch, Department of Canadian Heritage

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Welcome everyone to the continuing study of Bill C-10, clause by clause.

Welcome to everyone although I know we are missing one member at this point. We'll [Technical difficulty—Editor] shortly.

The way this normally works is that when the bells start ringing—I'm of the understanding they will be 30-minute bells—we break at that point. However, in the past when we've faced that, I have extended it to kind of finish what we were thinking about, as it were. To do that, I would need unanimous consent.

Before we came online, Mr. Rayes and I had the discussion about whether to continue or to end or suspend when the bells start ringing.

Mr. Rayes, do you want to start?

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Alain Rayes Conservative Richmond—Arthabaska, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for letting me share some information or, at least, my opinion on the subject.

In this case, as soon as the bells start ringing, we are supposed to stop the discussion. A number of committee members are on duty in the House today. Mr. Shields and Mr. Aitchison are on duty for the Conservatives, and Mr. Champoux is on duty for the Bloc Québécois. They have to physically go to the House of Commons. I think you mentioned earlier that we had to wait for the results of the House vote before the committee's proceedings could resume, but the members in question still have to leave the House of Commons and get back to the committee room.

Given how sensitive some of the issues being discussed are, I think we should make sure all the members on the committee are here for the discussion.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Mr. Rayes, thank you very much.

Normally, as I said, I would need unanimous consent to continue the debate into the bells. It appears we don't have it. I'm sorry. I am not presupposing anything. It's from what I just gathered. I'm not saying they weren't valid points, Mr. Rayes. They were valid points.

Ms. McPherson, go ahead.

1:20 p.m.

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

Mr. Chair, thank you. I just wanted to move the motion that I had shared with the committee. I don't know if this is the right time.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Normally I would say “yes”, but here is the situation. I have discussed this and I have read your motion. I'm assuming everybody has received it. This is the way this works. We are currently on amendment PV-21.1, the Green Party's amendment. According to the recent standing orders, amendments put forward by independent parties—I should say by parties not recognized in the House. Please don't take that the wrong way, Mr. Manly—are automatically deemed moved. When we get to anything that resembles PV—Parti Vert—amendments, we have to go with that because it's already deemed moved. If this were LIB or CPC, I could tell you to go ahead because those are not automatically moved.

I'll give you a bit of background. When independent parties—or parties that are not recognized in the House—wish to appear at the committee, they can submit and debate amendments but they cannot vote on them or move subamendments. Unfortunately, therefore, because of the rules that deem it moved, we have to deal with amendment PV-21.1. I can assure you, however, as chair, and now that you've given me notice, that once PV-21.1 is dispensed, we can go to your motion. I'll recognize you first.

Mr. Waugh.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Thanks for the clarification. We were just wondering about the same thing. It's kind of a different circumstance, especially today with votes, and I think you've cleared it up pretty well. We do know that Mr. Champoux from the Bloc, for example, could not be with us today because of House duty. We also have two members, and I see one—

1:20 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

What is your point of order?

1:20 p.m.

Bloc

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

This is Sébastien Lemire from the Bloc Québécois standing in for Martin Champoux, so the Bloc Québécois has a representative on the committee.

Thank you.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Of course. Thank you.

I hope that was a sufficient sound check. I'm going to have to rule it wasn't a point of order, but a point of order was accepted because I think we may have managed to get the sound check from you through that.

Mr. Waugh, you have the floor.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

I was just going to say that there's a rare sighting—two members in committee. Isn't that nice to see.

Mr. Chair, you've made some good points here today. The NDP motion should be discussed. With the recent developments of today, it might be a short discussion, but we'll see.

That's all I have to say.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Could I get everyone who doesn't want to speak to put down their hand?

I'm going to Mr. Shields now.

1:20 p.m.

Conservative

Martin Shields Conservative Bow River, AB

Just for clarification, I think what you were talking about was that, when the bells ring, you don't just cut people off mid-sentence. People get to finish up their thoughts. I assume that's what you were referring to in the sense of how we would finish up before we went to vote.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Shields, for the clarification.

Normally in the past, if the bells started ringing, I would look to have a conclusion of our thoughts. In order to do that, I need to have unanimous consent so that when the bells start ringing, I allow you to finish your sentence to a certain degree.

Seeing that I won't have unanimous consent, I will have to cut in when I feel it's necessary.

Ms. McPherson.

1:20 p.m.

NDP

Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB

It's possible that I forgot to lower my hand. I'm sorry.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

We call those “legacy” hands now, apparently.

Seeing no further conversation, we are now in committee meeting number....

Help me, Aimée.

1:20 p.m.

The Clerk of the Committee Ms. Aimée Belmore

This is meeting number 39.

1:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

I was going to say meeting 40, but I knew that was wrong.

This is meeting 39. We are dealing with clause-by-clause consideration of Bill C-10.

Welcome, everyone. As was pointed out earlier, we are virtual except for two members who are sitting in our committee room. That might be a positive sign of things ahead.

(On clause 7)

Nevertheless, we will start with PV-21.1. As I mentioned, it has been deemed moved. It's from the Green Party.

Mr. Manly, you have the floor.

1:20 p.m.

Green

Paul Manly Green Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This amendment brings back proposed section 4.1. It states the following:

9.2 This Act does not apply in respect of

(a) programs that are uploaded to an online undertaking that provides a social media service by a user of the service—who is not the provider of the service or the provider’s affiliate, or the agent or mandatary of either of them—for transmission or retransmission over the Internet and reception by other users of the service, except where the Canadian creator of a program has voluntarily chosen to be subject to the Act for discoverability purposes; and

(b) online undertakings whose broadcasting consists only of such programs, except where the Canadian creator of a program has voluntarily chosen to be subject to the Act for discoverability purposes.

The idea behind this exemption is a compromise. This would exempt user-generated content from regulation under the act unless a Canadian creator of programs opts to voluntarily have their programs available for discoverability. This would address concerns about freedom of speech, which are also providing an option for Canadians in the cultural industry to be promoted through discoverability.

The process of ensuring that you're discoverable is fairly straightforward under the CRTC regulations. There's a point system where you determine whether the producer, the director or the actors are Canadian. It's a six out of 10 score. It depends on a number of factors—where it's produced, who is involved with the production—for film and television. With the MAPL system, it's fairly straightforward. MAPL stands for music, artist, performance and lyrics. You need to fulfill at least two of those criteria to be eligible for Canadian content.

I feel that this is a compromise. It respects the freedom of speech. It doesn't deal with the issues around algorithmic bias, which is another serious issue we need to be discussing. We have seen in recent cases, with the Red Dress Day on May 5, that family members and people posting about missing and murdered indigenous women and girls, posting about family members who have gone missing, had their posts removed by Instagram and Facebook through an algorithm. These social media platforms have their processes where they're determining what content will be pulled down and what content won't be pulled down.

There have been complaints by people in the Black Lives Matter movement, by the Indigenous Lives Matter movement, by people standing up for the rights of Palestinians or people in Crimea or other locations, and by people standing up for old-growth forests. They have had their posts removed. They've been blocked on these social media platforms. We talk about free speech, but this is not really a democratic space. It is a corporate space. It is something that we need to deal with.

I hope members of the committee will support this amendment. I think it's a fair compromise. Those Canadian content producers who do want to be subject to the act and have discoverability of their Canadian productions should be able to have that option.

Thank you.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

Mr. Shields—

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

Mr. Speaker, I have a point of order. I'm so unfamiliar with sitting in a committee room. How do I make sure that my hand is raised? I don't want to hold it up the entire time. I just want to make sure that I'm in the queue. On Zoom I would just leave my hand up, but here it might fall off.

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

That's a valid point, sir. I'll have to work out a system. Let me converse with Aimée. It's been a while since we've had anybody in the room.

I'm assuming that your hand is up. Is that correct? Yes.

1:25 p.m.

Green

Paul Manly Green Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC

Is it possible that they could be on Zoom at the same time?

1:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Scott Simms

I'll have to try to work that out. I have a hybrid here that I'll have to work out.

The only problem I have is that I don't know in which order Mr. Aitchison falls. I have Mr. Shields, Mr. Rayes and Mr. Waugh.

Mr. Aitchison, would you be highly offended if I put you after Mr. Waugh?

1:25 p.m.

Conservative

Scott Aitchison Conservative Parry Sound—Muskoka, ON

I think it's only most appropriate that I go after those three distinguished parliamentarians.