Canadian Heritage Committee on March 21st, 2022

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

My apologies, Mr. Michael.

Mr. Bittle is harassing the witness at this point in time. The witness has answered this question four times over. If Mr. Bittle has a problem with the answer he's receiving, then perhaps he should take the opportunity to follow up offline. Right now this conduct is totally inappropriate. He is berating Mr. Michael. It is wrong.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Thank you, Mrs. Thomas.

Mr. Bittle, you do have the floor. We will all endeavour to be nice people.

Carry on, Mr. Bittle.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

I'm just asking the question. I guess I'll give the floor back to you in terms of the specific sections that you're concerned with, if you can help me out. I want us to be there to help digital creators, and if you can point me to the section that is your concern, that would be illuminating.

[Darcy Michael]

Absolutely. I'll get back to you on that.

[Oorbee Roy]

Can I say something? I don't have the specific section, but maybe I can just explain a little bit more.

The algorithm on TikTok pushes content out to users. If you're a user and you watch 10 videos, those are chosen by TikTok according to a certain algorithm. What happens is that, if you start to regulate this and push CanCon, 40% of that content has to be registered Canadian content. Now Darcy and I have to fight for those other six slots. We are not CRTC-eligible. I am not incorporated, so I'm not able to be a part of that, so Darcy and I are going to be pushed aside for big media, people who are registered for CanCon.

I don't have the bill in front of me, but from my understanding, and when we spoke to the minister earlier, that is something that has kind of been slipped in. That would be how it would be effective, the algorithm—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Thank you.

We will move on to the next round. This will be a very quick, lightning round because we do have to end early for committee business.

We'll go Mrs. Thomas, Mr. Housefather, Mr. Champoux and Mr. Julian very quickly.

Mrs. Thomas, you have the first round.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Michael, I'll come back to you because our time got cut short. I'm fascinated by your story. I'm inspired by your story because what I hear on this in this committee meeting is the juxtaposition between a victim mentality and the mentality of a victor. You chose to overcome obstacles. You chose to overcome the challenges of the pandemic. You chose to not allow the three gatekeepers, as you called them, to hold you back. Rather, you took an opportunity that was in front of you and you seized the day.

Now here's my question for you: Do you need the government to help you by putting in place Bill C-11?

[Darcy Michael]

Currently, no. Check back with me in six months, but as it stands right now, no. I think there are parts of the digital creation that shouldn't be legislated at this time until it's understood properly.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Okay, thank you.

Ms. Roy, I would ask you the same question. You obviously have shown that you did the same. You've been incredibly victorious in the midst of a very difficult time. You've raised the number of your viewers. During the last 18 months, I believe, you've shaped this following for yourself.

Tell me, do you need government support? Do you need government help? Do you want to see legislation put in place that is somehow going to do that?

[Oorbee Roy]

I'm going to piggyback on what Darcy said and say that I just [Technical difficulty—Editor] digital space. I do believe that people are trying to help artists, but I don't think there's enough understanding of what digital content creators are doing. I think that would probably help.

It's just “understand first”, and maybe then there's something we can do. Right now, I say no. I'm doing just fine, and I think most digital creators are doing fine. As it stands now, it's a very hearty “no”. Please don't include me.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Ms. Roy, do you feel that the government has listened to digital-first creators in its drafting of Bill C-11?

[Oorbee Roy]

I did have a chance to speak to the Minister of Canadian Heritage and it was a great opportunity. I'm not sure if they really understood. There's a lot of nuance here, and I think that maybe we just need to have more opportunity—maybe a seat at the table—so that people understand what we're doing a little more.

It's such a new technology—I get it—but so far, no. I don't feel that I have been heard, just from the line of questioning that Darcy was dealing with.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Michael, you can follow up on that question as well if you wish.

[Darcy Michael]

Yes. I definitely think we need to have a better understanding of how complicated this industry is and how vastly different it is from traditional media. I just don't believe that it should be included as it is right now.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Okay, awesome. Thank you so much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Thank you, Mrs. Thomas.

Next is Mr. Housefather, please, for five minutes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I concur that you're doing an excellent job at this meeting and that we should all be nice.

I would like to ask the AQTIS representative a few questions.

We're talking about a federal statute, but we also have a group of artists, the vast majority of whom fall under provincial legislation, and Quebec has the most progressive legislation in Canada.

Mr. Lemay, are cultural workers such as AQTIS technicians, for example, recognized under Quebec's Status of the Artist Act? Are they currently excluded from the Act Respecting Labour Standards, the Act Respecting Occupational Health and Safety, and the Pay Equity Act in terms of preventive withdrawal and parental insurance?

I was given to understand that this is the case. Could you elaborate on that?

[Christian Lemay]

That is an excellent question, Mr. Housefather.

The Act Respecting Occupational Health and Safety applies to all workplaces, of course. Generally speaking, not all social legislation applies, and we pointed that out in our submission to the government of Quebec.

As an example, let's take anything to do with preventive withdrawal for pregnant women. When a woman is between work benefits, since there is no employment relationship with an employer, this maternity-related measure does not apply. Our union was forced to take the issue to Quebec's Tribunal administratif du travail. We argued that parental leave and preventive withdrawal should apply whether or not there exists an employment relationship with an employer. Because of certain variables, processing may vary from case to case, which differs from what happens with every other Quebecker.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

If all the different labour laws applied to artists, I imagine it would reduce the precariousness experienced by most cultural workers.

What you are recommending is that the federal government ensure that all artists are covered by labour laws.

Is that correct?

[Christian Lemay]

Absolutely, I completely agree with you. Double standards should not exist in Canadian society. I believe that as a society we need to treat these artists and those in related occupations better.

On the issue of pay equity between men and women, you should know that in our business, we are a long way from achieving equality, and our union organization is still debating this issue with management.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I understand.

Mr. Chair, do I have any time left?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Absolutely. You have a minute and a half.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

All right.

Mr. Lemay, is it true that the Status of the Artist Act treats content on digital film platforms differently compared to television?

Do digital content producers have the authority to negotiate poorer working conditions for their technicians because digital platforms are still considered emerging media with unreliable profitability?

[Christian Lemay]

Provincial legislation makes no mention of it. The definition of "producer" is quite clear: "a person or company that retains the services of artists for the purpose of producing or publicly performing an artistic work..."

When the proposal regarding the emergence of new digital platforms was presented to us, considerable efforts were made by Quebec's associations to support this new business model.

I have to admit that associations and unions were somewhat left to their own devices as these new platforms were emerging. As part of Quebec's planned legislative reform, several associations have mentioned that new digital platforms are no longer as new as they once were. This type of production will certainly be addressed in our submissions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, John Nater]

Thank you, Mr. Housefather.

The next round is for Monsieur Champoux.

Mr. Champoux, you have the floor for two and half minutes.