Evidence of meeting #106 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbc.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Catherine Tait  President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada
Marco Dubé  Chief Transformation Officer and Executive Vice-President, People and Culture, CBC/Radio-Canada
Dany Meloul  Executive Vice-President, Radio-Canada, CBC/Radio-Canada
Barbara Williams  Executive Vice-President, CBC, CBC/Radio-Canada

4:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 106 of the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

I would like to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

You all know the usual drill. While public health authorities have not demanded that we wear masks, it's advisable. There are about six very bad viruses wandering around, so I would ask you to please wear them if you can.

I'd like to take the opportunity to say that you cannot take photographs of whatever is going on in the committee or on the screen. It will be available later on online.

There's just one caution. The room is equipped with a very powerful audio system. Please be very careful when you are speaking into the microphone that you remove anything that might cause feedback or a blip that would offend the ears of the interpreters.

Any questions or statements should be made through the chair.

Today we're meeting with the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to talk about job cuts announced by CBC/Radio-Canada. Today's witnesses are: Catherine Tait, president and CEO; Barbara Williams, executive vice-president of CBC; Dany Meloul, executive vice-president, Radio-Canada; and Marco Dubé, chief transformation officer and executive vice-president, people and culture.

Ms. Tait, you may proceed with your opening statement for five minutes, please.

4:25 p.m.

Catherine Tait President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada

I welcome the opportunity to talk with you today about the financial pressures facing CBC/Radio-Canada, but, given the committee's motion, I would like to address the issue of bonuses first.

For the record, CBC/Radio-Canada does not award so-called bonuses. What we have, like every other Crown corporation, is at-risk or performance pay, which is a key part of the total compensation for our non-union staff of about 1,040 employees. We benchmark that compensation against the middle range of pay for similar positions across the government and the industry. This at-risk pay is held back until the end of the fiscal year, and it is calculated based on the individual's performance and the corporation's performance. These specific measurements are linked to our annual business plan, including targets like revenue, reach and engagement across all of our services. Our board of directors reviews and approves these targets at the beginning of the year, and we report quarterly on our progress in our public documents.

Government departments and Crowns all have performance pay. It helps us deliver on key objectives and stretch to meet ambitious goals.

Over the past year, on multiple occasions, members of parliamentary committees have asked other organizations about so-called bonuses. I will tell you what they told you: Incentive pay is a part of total compensation, and the administration of compensation, like other human resources matters, remains the responsibility of the organization and its board of directors, which operate at arm's-length from government. Those decisions will be made after the close of the fiscal year.

Let me now turn to the very serious structural challenges CBC/Radio-Canada faces.

Shortly after I became president and CEO in 2018, I alerted our employees and the government, including the Minister of Finance, about the compounding, annual structural deficit we face because of two factors outside of our control: inflation on goods and services, and declines in television subscription and advertising revenues.

In 2018 that structural deficit was $21 million per year. Today it is $36 million. What this means practically is that we start each year with cuts to our budget. Unlike the private sector, we cannot manage fluctuations through loans or bridge financing. We must balance our budget each and every year.

Over the three years of the pandemic, as revenues plummeted, most media companies had to lay off staff. We shifted resources to maintain services and to protect jobs. We benefited from $21 million in additional government funding for each of the past three years, but today our ability to shift resources and find savings is no longer sufficient to meet the growing deficit.

Like all media, we face rising costs of operations and production, and declines in revenue, especially in the Quebec market. In addition, we are facing an additional 3.3% cut to our parliamentary appropriations as part of the government’s cost-saving effort, along with the end to the $21-million funding.

Taken together, these factors contribute to a shortfall of $125 million for the next fiscal year. We alerted the government to our financial challenge last summer; we notified our employees in October, and in December we announced that if our financial situation doesn't improve, we will need to cut approximately 800 positions, along with $40 million in independent production spending.

We recognize the uncertainty and worry this creates for our employees and for Canadians who depend on our services. We will manage these cuts in a way that minimizes the effects on jobs and the services we provide, and if our financial picture improves, we will adjust.

However, as I have said many times, the public broadcaster faces chronic underfunding. Compared to other public broadcasters around the world, we serve the largest country across six time zones, in two official languages and eight indigenous languages, and yet at $33 per Canadian, a dime a day, CBC/Radio-Canada is one of the worst-funded public broadcasters in the world, with four times less funding than the U.K. and France, and eight times less funding than Germany. Until that situation changes, we must continue to manage with what we have and do our very best to stretch limited resources to meet our mandate.

4:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you very much, Ms. Tait.

We're going to go to the part of the meeting where we're going to have questions and answers. The first round is a six-minute round. I will begin with the Conservatives.

Ms. Rachael Thomas, you have six minutes, please.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

Ms. Tait, thank you for giving us your time today. We appreciate it.

In your opening remarks, you outlined some challenges that the CBC faces. I should also outline, though, that every other media outlet in this country doesn't start off with $1.4 billion in taxpayers' dollars at the start of the year, so while you might look to play a card there, in terms of “poor me”, let's start off with a fact. Compared to other outlets in this country that are conducting themselves to perform at a higher standard than the CBC in many ways, they're not starting off with that. That's an important point that needs to be acknowledged right off the bat.

Ms. Tait, we're here to talk about job cuts and bonuses—you prefer to call them performance awards—and this is my first question for you. You've had two months to think on it. During an interview on national news, in fact, CBC's The National, you were asked whether or not bonuses would be considered for executives, and you said that it wasn't ruled out, essentially. Having had two months to think about it, have you come to a conclusion? Will there be bonuses for the executives within CBC?

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada

Catherine Tait

I just want to clarify the reality of the obligations of the public broadcaster. Of course we have the privilege of a very generous parliamentary allocation, which, by the way, has not substantially increased in over 30 years, and during that time we have added to traditional television and radio digital services on all platforms. We're operating with the same budget that we had 30 years ago. Where we get the same pressure as our colleagues in the private sector is, in fact, the one-third of our budget that we earn in commercial revenues, which are absolutely vulnerable to the vagaries of the market. That's the place where we have challenges.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Ms. Tait, in the interest of time, could you please answer my second question? There actually weren't two; there was just one.

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada

Catherine Tait

I heard your question.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Perfect, so could you answer it? Thank you.

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada

Catherine Tait

To the question of performance pay, as I have said in my remarks, the performance pay is a critical part of total compensation—

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

My question was just whether or not you would be giving them. Will you be giving bonuses to executives?

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada

Catherine Tait

My response to that question is to say that we have a rigorous process. It is not my decision to award performance pay. It is, in fact, the decision of the board of directors, and that decision comes at the end of the fiscal year. We have another two months before we reach the end of the fiscal year. As I have also said in public, everything is on the table, so we will see at the end of the fiscal year, based on results and where we are financially—

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

As the CEO, you do not make the decision? You have no say in whether or not bonuses are granted?

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada

Catherine Tait

All of the management team measures and analyzes our results on an annual basis, which are published very clearly in the quarterly reports—

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

As the CEO, you have no say in whether or not bonuses are given?

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada

Catherine Tait

All of the management team presents to the board of directors the results of our year against KPIs, key performance indicators, that have been tracked throughout the year, and based on the analysis and the results, the board of directors makes its decision.

I should just point out that—perhaps it's of interest—for example, last year we did not meet two of our KPIs and our bonus level was reduced.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Ms. Tait, thank you. I'll go to my next question now. I realize that you'll do your best to talk out the clock, so I'll just keep this going along here.

My next question is this: Those KPIs, would you table those with this committee?

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada

Catherine Tait

They're public in our annual report.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

Based on the metrics that are used, then, last year you gave out $16 million in taxpayer-funded bonuses to the staff. That was an average of $14,000 to staff members at the CBC. Most Canadians don't see even half of that, not even one-quarter of that in a yearly bonus. Fourteen thousand dollars was the average amount that was given to CBC staff. What were the metrics used to determine that bonus amount?

4:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada

Catherine Tait

Again, the KPIs are published, and they very clearly have to do with the performance of the service. As examples, digital reach, engagement with news in the regions, performance on engagement with kids and children—all of those are published very clearly in our annual report.

May I ask...? I think your number is wrong, and I want to correct the record—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Ms. Tait, I just highlight for you that it's interesting to me, because you're saying that these are the metrics, but actually the viewership of the CBC has cut in half since you took leadership in 2018. It has come down by half, so it's interesting to me that you're giving bonuses—or performance awards—when, in fact, the CBC is performing the poorest it has ever performed. Bonuses keep going up; they keep skyrocketing, but performance, which you say the bonuses granted are based on, is actually declining significantly.

4:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada

Catherine Tait

If I may, Madam Chair, I'd like to correct the record.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Ms. Tait, my question for you is, for 2023, will you be given a bonus?

4:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada

Catherine Tait

I would like to correct the record, if I may, Madam Chair.

First of all, I don't believe the number was $16 million for last year. I'm going to ask Marco Dubé, who manages the people and culture at our company, to correct the error that the member has stated.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I'm sorry. Madam Chair, through you, I do have a question on the table. That is, Ms. Tait, for 2023 will you be given a bonus?

4:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CBC/Radio-Canada

Catherine Tait

I'm going to come back to your question after he corrects the record.