Canadian Heritage Committee on Jan. 30th, 2024

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Some of it has to be completely met.

Ms. Tait, you're the one who gives the recommendations, so I would like you to answer.

Will your recommendation be given based on some being met, four being met, six being met, eight being met or all being met?

[Catherine Tait]

I'm not sure you understand the way it works.

Let's say there are seven performance indicators. Each one is awarded a percentage of the performance pay. Revenue, for example, is 20%. Revenue is a huge driver for the company. If we don't achieve revenue, we will not achieve the 20%. That's not to say it goes to zero. That's what Marco is saying, that there will be a lesser amount awarded.

To your question, I very much suspect that this year we will not meet our revenue target entirely, given my comments about the Quebec market.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Ms. Tait, what you're telling the committee then is that the decision has been made to cut 800 jobs. That announcement came out on December 4, right before Christmas, which is a pretty harsh time of year to make that announcement. What you have just told this committee is that there is still an intent to give bonus pay whether or not all KPIs have been met.

[Catherine Tait]

First of all, the announcement in December was an estimate forecast should our financial situation not improve, and the majority of the cuts—and this was very clearly stated in the release—would occur in the next fiscal year. We were giving a long runway in order to be able to improve. In fact, we, as a management team, are very focused on improving the results and reducing the cuts to the extent we can. The longer we have to work on a problem, the greater chance we have of achieving the result.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Ms. Tait, here are a few facts.

Under your leadership, trust in the media and especially in the CBC has declined. Fewer Canadians are watching the CBC. In fact, viewership has been cut in half since you took over in 2018. Ad revenue has plummeted. It decreased by 31% from 2022 to 2023. The number of CBC staff earning a six-digit salary has doubled. Then to add to that, in the last two years, just the last two years under your leadership, more than 100 correction notices have had to be issued with regard to stories put out by the CBC.

In your estimation, have you met the KPIs and do you therefore deserve a bonus this year?

[Catherine Tait]

I think I said earlier that I actually am not subject to the short-term incentive plan of the rest of the corporation because I am—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

There's no performance bonus available to you?

[Catherine Tait]

I have performance pay based on my objectives, which obviously correspond to the company's but also to additional objectives that are—

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

In your estimation, have you met those metrics that have been set out for you?

[Catherine Tait]

Absolutely, yes.

What you have described are the industry trends. I do not control the number of Canadians who have left television to go online. By the way, equal to the declining number watching CBC television that you continue to report is an increase in the millions of those who are watching Gem. If you are measuring viewership, I think you need to look at the totality of the experience.

By the way, Madam Chair, we submitted some documents to help the committee understand the reality of the numbers.

Today only 11% of English Canadians watch television only. Of francophones, 23% watch television only. In the English market, 34% are solely online. We're dealing with market trends. I do not think I or any of the management team should be evaluated on market trends.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Tait.

I think I am allowing a lot of leeway here because it's a two-hour meeting. We have another hour to go, so I would like to get some answers to questions.

I would like to ask the answerers, the witnesses, and the questioners to be as short as they possibly can to get the answers in.

Thank you very much.

I'm going now to the Liberals. It's going to be Taleeb Noormohamed.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us.

Ms. Tait, I think you're sensing a bit of a theme here in terms of the questions that folks have been asking with respect to the bonuses. I've been in your position before as a CEO where I've had to deal with cuts and then ask the question about whether or not management and others should receive bonuses.

One of the things that may be worthwhile to put on the table here is that I think there's a bit of a sense that perhaps the way in which the comment you made was received is more of the problem than what you were trying to say. I think most reasonable people would understand that the way bonuses work is based on criteria being met or not being met.

I think what people heard you say is that it doesn't matter that cuts are happening, we may still give people bonuses. I think it came off for some people as callous and cold, and perhaps, I'm hoping, was not what you were trying to say. I don't think, based on the answers you've given today, that it was what you were trying to say, but I think just for the avoidance of doubt—because my colleague from the Conservative Party didn't give you the chance to respond—do you get to decide who gets bonuses or not?

[Catherine Tait]

Not solely me, no.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

It's the board of directors who decide, right?

[Catherine Tait]

I beg your pardon? I'm sorry. I can't hear you.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

The board of directors makes that decision. Is that right?

[Catherine Tait]

They make that decision based on the data that we present to them, yes.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

If the corporation were in a difficult financial position and some of your executives had met most of their criteria, what would you recommend to your board in that situation?

[Catherine Tait]

I think the reality is that when we know where we are, we will respond accordingly. I think it's premature to be talking about performance pay when, one, we're not even at the end of the fiscal year and, two, we actually don't know what our financial situation will be for the next year.

I would just point out that since my announcement on December 4, we heard there will be additional funding from Bill C-18 for CBC/Radio-Canada. That will have an impact as we plan for the coming year. We run a very, very complex organization, and we are vulnerable to all the vagaries of the market. I am very hopeful that our situation will improve and that advertising revenues will come up, and we will be able to meet all of our obligations and be able to reduce the impacts on programming and on employees.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I'm really pleased to hear my Conservative colleagues' concern about the fate of employees at CBC/Radio-Canada, which would be a rare thing, given their desire to cut the whole thing, so I want to lean in on this a bit. One of the things that those of us who care deeply about the CBC would want to know is: How do you retain, how do you make sure that you can get the best of the best to work for the corporation and stay with the corporation?

Granted, performance pay is one of those things. I think we all understand that, but how do you make sure that this is an environment, a place in which employees want to work at the CBC at a time when there's public scrutiny, at a time when there's competitive tension? How do we make sure and how do you make sure the CBC is able to attract and retain the best talent to produce the content that Canadians deserve?

[Catherine Tait]

Well, it's a number of factors, and I thank you for that question.

One is, most of the people, and certainly all of the people at this table, are here because of public service. Most of us left private media to come and work at the public broadcaster because we care deeply—and we care deeply, by the way, about our employees. Part of it is we're here for the mission. I think if you asked any CBCer and any Radio-Canadien, they'll say the same thing: “I care deeply about the mission.”

You also have to understand that we operate in a competitive business marketplace. Even here in Ottawa, people can get other jobs, so if we're not at least—and this is what we peg—at 50% of what the average compensation might be, we're not going to retain the talent. We've seen that in the past. We have retention issues when we don't pay competitively. We do exit surveys, and the number two reason for people leaving CBC/Radio-Canada.... Number one is “I got a new opportunity” and number two is that the salary is not competitive.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

You have seven seconds to go, Mr. Noormohamed. Do you have a quick word? No? You're good?

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

How many seconds are left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have seven seconds—four now.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Tait.