Canadian Heritage Committee on Jan. 30th, 2024

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

No, but through you, Madam Chair, the witness knows that her instructions here are to answer the questions that have been given.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We have 27 seconds.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

She can correct the record by sending in a written notice if she wishes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You can do that, Ms. Tait.

In fact, you've gone over time, Ms. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

My time has been interrupted numerous times because the witness didn't want to answer my question.

It's very simple: Will she be given a bonus in 2023?

[Catherine Tait]

It's not my decision whether I get a bonus or not.

Let's just be clear. Performance—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. That's enough time.

I'm going to the Liberals for six minutes. Ms. Hepfner will go for four minutes and then Ms. Gainey will go for two.

Lisa, go ahead.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the team at CBC for being here to answer our questions again today.

I want to pick up again on executive bonuses. I think, Ms. Tait, you spoke about the privilege—really, it is—to run and have the stewardship of a Crown corporation, a public institution and, even more, a media institution like CBC/Radio-Canada, which really plays a vital part in our democracy. I'm sure that, to run such a large, complex media organization, you need really talented people behind the helm and you need people to be there. You need to be able to attract that talent, but right now hundreds of your colleagues are facing layoffs, so wouldn't you say it's fair for us to ask these questions about executive compensation when so many journalists and people who do the real work that Canadians are counting on are facing the uncertainty and instability that you mentioned in your statement?

[Catherine Tait]

I absolutely understand the point of members here. All I would say—as I have repeatedly, and we made a public statement on this matter—everything will be on the table in due process. If we run a $1.8-billion corporation and we don't respect the processes, the rules and the directives of the board of directors, then it's chaos. We have a process in place. Performance pay is pegged against targets and it's measured, and at the end of the fiscal year, which will be the end of March, the board of directors will decide, and we will see whether our financial situation improves.

Just to be very clear, our announcement in December was an estimate, a forecast, and we were.... In the effort to be transparent with our employees, because we are embarking on negotiations with our most important English union, the Canadian Media Guild, we had to be transparent in order to be respectful of that bargaining process.

Just to be clear, estimates are not actuals. We will know by the end of March where we are. The board of directors will review our performance and it will make that decision.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Can you talk to me about how you view this issue of compensation? Should public institutions like CBC/Radio-Canada be competing directly with the private sector?

[Catherine Tait]

Those are two different issues that you've raised.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

That's in terms of compensation.

[Catherine Tait]

Executive compensation is pegged at 50% of the average, so it's not that the executives are being compensated at the level of government.

I can ask Marco to give us more detail on that.

[Marco Dubé, Chief Transformation Officer and Executive Vice-President, People and Culture, CBC/Radio-Canada]

What we have is a short-term incentive plan. When we're talking about competition, what we need to do as a responsible organization, a public broadcaster that delivers services to all Canadians, is to actually have the talent to deliver those services.

Our compensation framework actually takes into account all kinds of elements. We have a huge unionized population for whom contracts actually provide for overtime. For unaffiliated people, we have a short-term incentive program that is pegged against performance targets. If people achieve those targets at the end of the year, the board decides to compensate these people adequately to the mid, the mean or the average of comparable positions you would find in the industry, the media industry or other Crown organizations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Ms. Hepfner.

Anna Gainey, you have two minutes, please.

[Anna Gainey, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Westmount, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here today.

The Broadcasting Act clearly states that CBC/Radio-Canada must strive to be of equivalent quality in English and French, to reflect the specific needs and circumstances of each official language community, including the specific needs and interests of official language minority communities, while meeting the specific needs of the Canada's various regions.

What steps have you taken to ensure that the savings measures you recently announced are consistent with that mandate?

[Catherine Tait]

Our obligations, especially with respect to the promotion, protection and survival of the French language, are at the heart of everything we do. We are meeting our obligations under the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission, as well as those under the new Official Languages Act.

You also have to understand that parliamentary appropriations are divided between the two services so that the CBC receives roughly 56% and Radio-Canada 44% of the funding.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 20 seconds.

[Catherine Tait]

When we consider all of our revenue sources, it is 54% for the CBC and 46% for Radio-Canada. That proportion reflects near parity, if I can put it that way.

With regard to the cuts at CBC/Radio-Canada, our approach is to look at the two different markets. If time permits later, I will invite my two colleagues to explain that approach a bit.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. That's it.

I'm going to the next questioner, who's from the Bloc Québécois, Martin Champoux.

You have six minutes, please, Martin.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon to all four of you.

Ms. Tait, before we left for the holidays, according to the information we had on what was coming for the people at CBC/Radio-Canada, 800 positions were going to be cut, 200 of which were already vacant and would not be filled. The rest of the job cuts were going to be shared equally between the CBC and Radio-Canada.

Did the holidays make you reflect a little on that position? Do you still think that this is the right way to implement budget cuts?

[Catherine Tait]

As I just said, we have to look at all the cuts. We're talking about positions, of course, but we're also talking about spending on independent production.

For the CBC, we are proposing budget cuts of $25 million; for Radio-Canada, the figure is $15 million. That is a difference of about 20% for all cuts at CBC/Radio-Canada. There is a difference between the two.

If you want, Ms. Meloul—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I would actually like to talk about something else.

Don't take this the wrong way, Ms. Meloul, but we don't have much speaking time, and I have a lot of questions to ask.

I also want to talk about the job cuts, the personnel cuts. That's also worrisome. In fact, that is probably the thing that worries the public broadcaster's employees the most right now.

On the one hand, it is announced that there will be cuts on both sides, at both the CBC and Radio-Canada, in equal numbers. This has already been criticized, as you have heard.

On the other hand, there is uncertainty: We don't know when it will happen, if it will happen and to whom it will happen. This creates an unbearable climate within Radio-Canada itself, and the same is probably true for the CBC.

Do you think that's a good way to move forward, when the situation in the news and popular media sector is extremely volatile and changing?

[Catherine Tait]

I think it is better to be transparent and to tell employees about the reality of our structural deficit. That's the problem we have. We're here to stay open. We have to at least work with our teams to find the best way to operate within the constraints of our budget.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I understand, but when you tell your team that you're going to cut 250 jobs, I don't think it shows a lot of stability or makes them likely to co-operate. It's rather worrisome; it's the other way around.

I'm going to talk to you about the difference between the CBC and Radio-Canada in terms of general interest television. I know that the activities are very diversified, but let's talk about television, particularly the difference in market shares. As you know, the CBC's market share and Radio-Canada's market share are light years apart, despite greater funding for the CBC. It's 23% for Radio-Canada and 4.4% for the CBC. I see that as an important sign to consider.

Of the 10 most watched programs in Canada last fall, how many do you think came from francophone television stations?