Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 15th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Martin.

I'll go to Niki Ashton for two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

I'd like to ask my question of Ms. Paradkar.

In your presentation, you talked about the loss of critical voices in the media and about the harassment received by journalists who ask tough questions and seek to hold power to account, journalists like you.

We referenced in the previous question the attacks on journalists who have been willing to speak about what is happening in Gaza and Palestine at this time. Do you think journalists are less willing to talk about important issues that exist, whether they be Palestine or others, because they think harassment and potential job loss simply aren't worth it?

[Shree Paradkar]

I'm going to base my answer not so much on my own experience, because I'm not a young journalist and a lot of the criticisms I get just bounce off me. They don't bother me too much, but I must tell you that every time I go to a journalism school to lecture students, the first question I'm asked is about abuse and repercussions.

I'm asked how I face them. I believe that's not only for journalists, but also for women politicians and doctors. It's disproportionately women and women of colour who face this if they are people with strong opinions, and it's across the political spectrum. This is something young people are watching very carefully. They are very concerned about this, because they come with a high sense of justice versus injustice and want to speak, but then are feeling already that they might be silenced and are trying to figure out how to deal with that silence. That has led to what a UNESCO report called the “chilling”.

It's important to understand that abuse, harassment and threats are not only in the form of bad language that comes your way and not only in the form of criticisms—even racist, gendered or misogynistic criticisms. They're also in the form of the dog-piling that happens when other journalists or professionals dog-whistle to their followers to attack you. The criticism itself could appear to be fair or even reasonable, and then what ensues is the dog-piling of attacks of their followers. That is also seen by UNESCO as a form of abuse.

These are all—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Paradkar. We'll come back to that later on in another round.

I'll now go to Kevin Waugh.

Kevin, you have five minutes.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Gonez, you started out here today by saying that you had massive losses because of Bill C-18 being passed. Not one member of the government has talked about this here today. You lost because of Bill C-18.

Can you comment on what you lost with Bill C-18's passing last June as far as money goes, as far as staff goes and as far as the vision for your company goes?

[Brandon Gonez]

Yes. Leading up to before August, we were hiring a journalist every single month. That's how fast we were growing. Look at one of our pages. Just on Instagram alone, the average number of Canadians we were reaching every 30 days was 35 million.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

What? It was 35 million? That's the population of this country.

[Brandon Gonez]

Yes.

One thing we found that was so fascinating about the digital landscape was that we didn't look at what we were doing as a Canadian thing. We thought that with our stories, we connected with support globally. I thought that was really fascinating.

What we have in this country is such a unique situation. You can have somebody who looks like me and whose parents were immigrants...and now I've been able to start something super successful and to start to hire people who didn't have a safe place in some of these other newsrooms across the country.

I also understand a hundred per cent of the intent behind Bill C-18. I know what crisis has taken place. As I said, I've worked in the second-smallest market in this country: Smithers, a town of 5,000. I've also worked in the largest city, and I know what's happening. There is a deep need for a strong public broadcaster and for sustaining a diverse range of media voices, but it shouldn't come as a hindrance to people who took a risk in this country to create a new ecosystem, to create new opportunities and to give voices to people who were left out of the conversation.

That was always my fear about Bill C-18, potentially. How it was executed wasn't the right way. The intent, yes, I understand, but how it was executed severely affected people who were creating a whole new format that potentially could have been replicated across the world.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

The problem with Bill C-18 is that legacy media has the say. They want to shut you down. They want to shut down new digital platforms. They want all the money, and when Bill C-18 happened, you were affected. You didn't say much, but all the legacy.... The Toronto Star had a side deal with Google prior to Bill C-18. Now they're maybe not going to get as much money as they had hoped, because with Google, $100 million.... Maybe it's $75 million.

There still could be side deals, but I think for people in this country, trust has been the issue. They're looking for news outside the legacy media. You've proven it. You were in legacy and you went from Smithers to the biggest market. You took the gamble. There are others in this country taking the gamble like you did and who I believe are being held back.

[Brandon Gonez]

It is unfortunate.

As I said, I believe a healthy media ecosystem is an ecosystem that has all different players—strong and healthy players that can sustain themselves. I believe that one hundred per cent. I do not believe it should come at the hindrance of people who took a risk to create a whole new ecosystem that is thriving.

For any money coming that has been committed, I believe there should be a dedicated stream for people and businesses that are created under the premise of living on the tech giants' platforms. We went there first and we created something sustainable, so there should be a stream dedicated to us. I'm not saying all the money should come to us—

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Why not? That's the new future.

[Brandon Gonez]

I'm not greedy. Maybe if more people who are leading the companies had the same mindset, we wouldn't be where we are today, but—

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Let me ask you this, because I only have a few seconds. Is the government intervention right now holding you back?

[Brandon Gonez]

It has had an impact.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

How much of an impact?

[Brandon Gonez]

It has had an impact. I'm hoping that as things are fleshed out, we can be made whole, as the minister at the time said.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Gonez, and thank you, Kevin.

I'm going to Ms. Lattanzio.

By the way, welcome to the committee, Ms. Lattanzio. You're now a permanent member of our committee.

You have five minutes.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm glad to be among my colleagues. It's a very interesting study.

First and foremost, I'd like to thank the witnesses for delivering their speeches today.

My questions will be for Mr. Tousignant and Mr. Champagne.

Mr. Tousignant, some members of Parliament from other political parties want to cut funding to Canadian news organizations such as CBC/Radio-Canada. In your opinion and experience, how would this type of measure affect the Canadian news industry?

[Pierre Tousignant]

First, Radio-Canada gradually turned into a broadcaster. Corporate choices were made at the expense of in‑house production to support the development of a television industry in the country. As a result, Radio-Canada's entertainment industry, known as variety shows, is mainly produced by the private sector.

With regard to the main impact of reduced funding for the Société Radio-Canada, I must first point out that the CBC and Radio-Canada are closely connected. Your committee has heard testimony on this topic. I won't defend the positions of Radio-Canada management. Ms. Tait and her colleagues are quite capable of doing so, and better than I could.

That said, there are four unions at Radio-Canada. I'm in regular contact with my colleagues in the other unions. We try to work across unions, because we have issues in common.

The Société Radio-Canada is a package. Its mission is different from the missions of private companies. It isn't just a matter of funding. CBC/Radio‑Canada is a societal project that transcends ratings and accounting data.

Changing the funding for Radio‑Canada is a matter for public debate. This debate doesn't belong to the unions or Radio-Canada management. The funding for Radio-Canada belongs to the public and to you, the elected officials. The corporation belongs to all Canadians. It must be seen in this perspective, as a tool for bringing people together from one end of the country to the other. This includes francophones, anglophones and first nations people. The project must be defended and protected. However, this shouldn't be done at the expense of other current models, which have different missions and challenges. CBC/Radio-Canada is a project and must be treated as such.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Indeed. It's a societal project.

In your opinion, how does Radio‑Canada contribute to regional reporting?

What would be the biggest impact on listeners and viewers if Radio-Canada were to disappear?

[Pierre Tousignant]

If you talk to any francophone association in New Brunswick or western Canada, they'll say that cutting funding to Radio‑Canada would jeopardize the survival of francophone communities both inside and outside Quebec. Of course, there are other media outlets in the country, as demonstrated by today's presentations. However, Radio‑Canada is probably the main outlet where Canada's francophones tell their stories, talk to each other, hear from each other, debate and showcase Canada's francophone culture on radio, screen and digital platforms.

As we see it, the reduction or elimination of Radio‑Canada's funding in this environment could lead to the disappearance of French-speaking communities, or at the very least, could adversely affect these communities.

Conversely, the same applies to the CBC in Quebec. As has been pointed out, private English-language media are less active outside the major centres. CBC is still active in Sherbrooke, Quebec City and Montreal. It's probably the main English-language media outlet covering Quebec as a whole. The CBC is also important to Quebec's English‑speaking community.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 15 seconds.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Tousignant.

Mr. Champagne, I'll turn to you. If we run out of time, you can respond in writing.

In your opinion, what is the impact of the announced changes to the Canadian journalism labour tax credit? How will they affect the news industry, both at the regional and local levels?

[Éric-Pierre Champagne]

I believe that the time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I don't think we have time for an oral answer. I think you'll have to send that in writing, please, Monsieur Tousignant. If you can send it in writing to the committee, we will share your answer. Thank you very much.