Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 21st, 2024

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Tait and Mr. Goldbloom, I welcome you and thank you both.

Ms. Tait, I hope this is your last visit to this committee for this mandate. It hasn't always been smooth sailing for you, but you've always been frank and direct, and you've never shied away from even the most difficult questions.

Performance bonuses were discussed on several occasions. It's a compensation model that needs to be reviewed. Since the minister intends to table a new mandate for CBC/Radio-Canada, I imagine that the question of compensation will be part of this review, and that we'll be able to come back with the data that will be presented to us.

That said, as my colleague Mr. Coteau said earlier, I too am an ardent supporter of a healthy public broadcaster. It's essential, in these times marked by disinformation and the arrival in the media and journalistic world of all kinds of new pseudo-journalistic enterprises. We can also see the absolutely appalling effect of foreign interference, not only in political parties, but also in the news media and those who claim to be news media, notably social media.

What I'd like to do with you, Ms. Tait, is question the criticism of what our public broadcaster, CBC/Radio-Canada, costs. I think we've already talked about this and put the figures on the table during one of your first visits to the committee. However, I'd like us to make comparisons with other public broadcasters around the world, because these are figures you have at your fingertips.

For example, how much does CBC/Radio-Canada cost Canadians? How much do they have to pay to have access to a public broadcaster, with all the tools you've put in place to adapt to today's media market?

[Catherine Tait]

It costs $32 per person per year.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I see.

By way of comparison, how much does it cost the Australians?

[Catherine Tait]

It costs them $48 a year.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

So you have the list in front of you. We have the same figures.

[Catherine Tait]

Yes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

We often like to compare ourselves to Scandinavian countries, whether it's their social safety net or their values. I won't ask you for more figures, but in Denmark, for example, the public broadcaster costs $116 per capita per year, in Canadian dollars. In Finland, it's $124 a year; in Germany, which is not a Scandinavian country, it's $141.99 a year; and in Norway, it's $150 a year.

Isn't there a problem with people's perception, especially those who tend to be critical?

[Catherine Tait]

Yes, indeed.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

How do we counter this kind of perception?

[Catherine Tait]

We try to explain to Canadians that Canada is a vast country, that we provide services in English and French, and that we have eight indigenous languages. Our situation is very different from Germany's, and we have far fewer resources.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

All right.

I'm not saying that the criticism isn't justified. I think that, on the matter of the bonus, the perception is very bad. We agree on that. On the other hand, I think the perception would be even worse if CBC executives and on-air personalities were paid the same as TV and radio stars and executives in the private sector.

So give us an example of what the private sector equivalent of a vice-president of information's compensation might be.

I don't know if you have those figures. Let's take the example of the CEO of Bell, which is a big company after all. What is his annual salary?

[Catherine Tait]

If we're talking about BCE's CEO, it's around $13 million. If we're talking about my counterpart at Bell Media, it's around $5 million.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

What would be the reaction—

[Catherine Tait]

The report we have commissioned will do just that kind of analysis.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I don't even dare talk about on-air personalities. People have the perception that the stars on CBC/Radio-Canada earn millions of dollars, which is not the case. I think only six people earn more than $300,000 a year. On private channels like Québecor, stars earn two, three, four or five times that. On the radio, it's the same model.

Do you think people would prefer that executive salaries be raised to be closer to the media community as a whole? Or do you think we'll have to keep the bonus model to keep the appearance of relatively low, reasonable salaries, given that these salaries are paid with public funds?

[Catherine Tait]

I'd like to point out that, even with a bonus, it's less than in the private sector. The total remuneration of our executives is 50% of what it is in the private sector.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Earlier, we talked about executive compensation in countries with public broadcasters. We don't need to talk about the most generous. Generally speaking, how do we compare with other countries?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds.

[Catherine Tait]

As you mentioned, in Australia, the CEO is paid the equivalent of $1.1 million Canadian, I think.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Okay. So we have a long way to go in terms of perception. If we want to keep a healthy public broadcaster, free of misinformation, we also have a way to go on the issue of populism in relation to these data.

Thank you, Ms. Tait.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I now go to the New Democrats. Niki Ashton, you have six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Tait, in an email obtained by the media through an access to information request, you wrote that the “defund the CBC” movement is gaining momentum, and it is true, whether it's because of the Liberals, whose threats of a 3% cut across the board led you to shrink your workforce to smaller than it was during Stephen Harper's years, or the Conservatives, who've made it very clear that they want to destroy the CBC.

Canadians want to depend on the CBC. For us in the NDP, it is clear that we need the CBC. We need a strong public broadcaster, but not in the way that you are putting it forward. Under your leadership, executive bonuses are up while job cuts have been endemic. When asked whether or not you regret the almost $20 million given in executive bonuses this year while jobs were simultaneously being cut, you said you “don't live in regret”, which I'm sure is cold comfort for the workers who have lost their jobs and may no longer be able to live in their homes.

Will you acknowledge that your actions—CBC's actions—to dole out $18 million in bonuses have hurt CBC's reputation?

[Catherine Tait]

If I may, Madam Chair, there are a couple of points there I would like to correct.

One is the idea that executive bonuses or performance pay is up. The average is more or less the same as it has been in the last 10 or 15 years. Let's be clear that the average across 1,000 employees is about $15,000.

Number two is that more jobs have been lost during my tenure. I would point out that over the last six years, 90 positions have been lost at the public broadcaster. Every job loss is very hard. Over the previous 10 years, 1,085 jobs were lost. Let us be clear that to paint a picture that CBC/Radio-Canada is somehow cutting jobs in a heartless fashion is not true.

During the pandemic, we were clear—

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

With all due respect, Ms. Tait, the question is about something that you have been on the record, certainly internally, as saying, which is that your concern is around the movement to defund the CBC.

Are you concerned that your actions, CBC's actions, to dole out $18 million in bonuses is contributing to the attacks on the CBC and, frankly, playing into the hands of Conservatives, who want nothing less than to cut the CBC, while the rest of us believe we need a strong public broadcaster? Will you acknowledge that your actions are contributing to the attacks on the CBC?

[Catherine Tait]

I would say that the fact that my actions have contributed, as you're describing it, is irrelevant.

What would be more disturbing for Canadians is if the CBC's management and board of directors did not act in a way that was independent and fiscally responsible. We had commitments to over 1,000 employees, and we met those commitments, but we heard the concerns and we have taken action and have ordered a third party review of our compensation policies.

Beyond that, I cannot see how else we could respond without having, quite frankly, caused Canadians to be concerned about the true independence of their public broadcaster.