Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Pilon, you clearly understand how important it is to broadcast Canadian stories and support Canadian artists. If certain members of this committee achieve their goal of defunding CBC/Radio-Canada, we will lose a major part of our ability to support local talent and to share those stories from a personal and professional standpoint.

Would you please explain why defunding CBC/Radio-Canada would be so harmful to our country's film industry?

[Carol Ann Pilon]

It's hard to consider the services that Radio-Canada offers to francophone minority communities and those that the CBC offers as two isolated entities, particularly in the country's regions. While the programming broadcast by the two services may be very distinct, they often share infrastructure and technical and other resources.

This pooling of resources is strategic. If you reduced the CBC's regional services, that would necessarily cut Radio-Canada's regional capabilities. You must bear in mind that regional services have already suffered previous cuts.

It seems to be that merely thinking about the CBC disappearing from the regions causes one to contemplate Radio-Canada doing the same.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you.

I'd like to discuss a lot of topics, but my speaking time is limited.

On the international side, can you tell us how important it is for a country such as ours to have a strong public sector in the arts and information field, particularly considering everything that's going on with foreign interference?

How is Canada perceived compared to other democratic nations?

[Carol Ann Pilon]

I wouldn't necessarily dare talk in any detail about how Radio-Canada is perceived compared to other public broadcasters because I don't really have that information.

However, I know that Radio-Canada recently received representatives of public broadcasters who have been part of an association for many years here in Ottawa to discuss that exact question. I believe that the truth is still a major concern for most Canadians. I've previously mentioned that in other appearances. The code of conduct that Radio-Canada has established is one of the strictest in the world, and I think it affords Canadians some assurance that the information it broadcasts is reliable.

[Anju Dhillon, Liberal, Dorval—Lachine—LaSalle, QC]

Thank you very much, Ms. Pilon.

Mrs. Kolt, my next question is for you. I'm going to try to lump them all in together.

We heard that there's a conflict of interest with CBC and the government. There are 18 countries with a public broadcaster like the CBC. Do you think they're all in a conflict of interest?

The other part of my question is more like a comment. We're being compared to the U.S., and it's the only G7 country without a public broadcaster. Would you talk to us a little bit about that?

My third question is this: How important do you think it is for us in Canada to have a national broadcaster to protect against foreign interference and misinformation?

Thank you, Mrs. Kolt.

[Crystal Kolt]

In terms of the importance of our independent voices, I think it's imperative. The national broadcasting system is our voice. People are people; they will be enticed by other voices that are around, and right now, with the way the social media world is going, it is being fed to us very easily and directly. We need to have an independent voice, such as the CBC, to be able to protect us from international interference. I cannot see how that can be possible with other independent private sectors within the media world.

I don't know if that answers one of your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much. I think our six minutes are up.

Now I'm going to go to the Bloc.

Martin Champoux, you have six minutes, please.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm very pleased to be able to welcome Ms. Charette, who had a lot of technical issues this morning and made a considerable effort to resolve them. Thank you for your perseverance, Ms. Charette.

I listened to the remarks you made during your presentation, and what I concluded from them that we should discuss CBC/Radio-Canada so long that we waste precious time. We need to protect ourselves from things that I don't think are important rather than focus our energies on the future of our public broadcaster. Nearly 80% of Canadians and an even larger percentage of Quebeckers agree that has to be done.

I would prefer that we discuss the future rather than waste time defending ourselves against populist remarks that more resemble disinformation than facts and against an argument for cutting or cancelling the CBC's funding. You and I obviously don't agree on that idea.

I know that you took part in a reflection exercise on renewing the public broadcaster's mandate and that you think it's very important that the public broadcaster survive. You represent 6,000 news industry members, including many who gravitate around CBC/Radio-Canada.

What does the future look like for you? What should we do to protect the public broadcaster going forward, in this evolving context, which has vastly changed since its mandate was last revised?

[Annick Charette]

There are many parts to your question, but I'll try to give you as brief an answer as possible.

As I said, Radio-Canada is a national treasure and a strong public broadcaster that meets high, internationally recognized standards.

I have in my hand a short quotation from something I read on the UN website. Andrei Richter, a professor at Comenius University, in Bratislava, wrote as follows:

In the modern cacophony of contradicting messages, disinformation and conflicting interpretations of events, [the public service media] is the voice of quality and investigative journalism, of fact-checking, context and reason. In this regard, [the public service media] is capable of establishing a standard for commercial media in the dissemination of timely and reliable information to the public, especially in emergency situations.

I think that tidily sums up Radio-Canada's mandate. What you have to remember is that the government and the Canadian people have mandated that the public broadcaster provide this service across Canada. Radio-Canada has to account for itself to the people of Manitoba, northern Quebec and British Columbia, in particular, and that's what it's doing.

Should we question its budget and management? We should definitely have that conversation so Radio-Canada can modernize. We need to have that discussion, but we have to do it with an open mind. There can be no ideological distractions. We need to give the Canadian people excellent television and continue doing so into the future. It's true that cutting or cancelling the CBC's funding would have an impact on Radio-Canada in Quebec, even though that's not clearly and precisely stated.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I don't think anyone's fooled about that, Ms. Charette. We all understand that that would have a major impact on the cultural and information industries and the French-language services across Canada.

Having said that, I'd like to discuss the funding issue.

As you mentioned in your opening remarks, the public broadcaster's funding amounts to roughly $33 per Canadian per year. You pay more than that for Netflix, Spotify and a lot of other subscriptions. And yet you'd think that $33 a year scares a lot of people. You yourself said that the global average is around $85 or $88. Every citizen in Germany pays $100 or $150 a year. You don't hear the Germans complaining that they pay too much.

Furthermore, the situation isn't the same in Canada. Here the news has to be delivered in both official languages and several indigenous languages.

People often criticize the bonuses and the fact that CBC/Radio-Canada captures part of the advertising pie. Wouldn't the solution be to make sure the message gets through and to sharply increase CBC/Radio-Canada's annual budget on a cost-per-capita basis?

[Annick Charette]

I don't think its current funding should just be maintained; it should be increased. We discussed the small media outlets and the people who feel they're competing. You have to remember that, if Radio-Canada stopped advertising, it's advertising revenue would go to private broadcasters. They won't be double-dipping.

On the other hand, I think Radio-Canada's vision should also include the idea of supporting local news outlets by sharing certain parts of its turf with those outlets that also need support, since they can't survive on their current revenue levels.

There may be solutions, but we need to have that conversation. As I said, it has to be done with an open mind. We can't just put the lid on the Radio-Canada pot and say it's worthless now, then set it aside and have to reinvent the model. We have something solid here, and we have to continue working on it. There has to be accountability, of course. We have a right to question budget allocations or—

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

—compensation models.

[Annick Charette]

That's it: we have to question the compensation models.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Ms. Charette, we've previously discussed the idea of CBC/Radio-Canada contributing, by sharing infrastructure and online resources, to the survival of very small media outlets and independent outlets that are finding it hard to get through this period. I find that very interesting.

[Annick Charette]

Thank you.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

My time is up, but thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thanks very much.

I go to the New Democrats and Niki Ashton for six minutes, please.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Kolt, thank you so much for speaking to us today, for joining us here today, for sharing your visionary work that has given so much to our region, our province and our country. Thank you for sharing your work in the arts, which has lifted up so many northern and indigenous artists across our region.

You've shared a clear message about the importance of the CBC for northerners in rural regions. You've also, though, shared the need for our public broadcaster to invest in regions like ours.

I know you made reference to Peter Mansbridge. Our region used to have a vibrant CBC contingent. In fact, Peter Mansbridge, as we all know, at least here, was first discovered in Churchill and brought on to the CBC. Others, like Cynthia Greer of Norway House Cree Nation was one of the first people across the country to provide local programming entirely in Cree as part of CBC North Country.

Years ago, Eric Robinson worked as a producer and broadcaster for the CBC here in northern Manitoba. He went on, of course, to become a cabinet minister in government. Also, of course, there is Mark Szyszlo, who worked for decades in our station based here in Thompson but was servicing the entire north on the road, connected to communities, sharing our stories—not just, as you pointed out, with our own communities and with each other, but more importantly, with our province, our country and, in some cases, the world.

I'm wondering if you can share with us what it was like, given the work that you do, to have a CBC presence in our region, and what came out of that? Could you compare that to what it's been like since 2017, when Mark Szyszlo left, when we've had our station shut down and intermittent coverage based here in the north?

[Crystal Kolt]

Yes, thank you so much.

When we moved up north, we really were trying to figure out how we would keep connected with the rest of the world. Having a direct line to the world.... I can't express how important it was, because it's so complicated to try to connect when you're so far apart from each other.

I was able to first be introduced to Mark Szyszlo because he was roaming around everywhere in the north. He was in every single community. I was able to call him about...whether it was our first performance in Carnegie Hall or anything we wanted to share, and share that with him. He would be the professional to determine whether or not it was worthy of taking south or further across the country. I trusted his opinion. I trusted his professionalism. I knew that he cared about what was happening in my region and throughout northern Manitoba. It was like a switch was turned off when he was no longer there.

Now, the CBC has tried very hard to try to maintain some sort of communication between the north and south, but it's, I think, virtually impossible to try to do that without boots on the ground up around where we are, because it's just so vast and there are so many things happening. Things are being missed unless we actually have that person there who can support us.

It has been night and day. I have been working very hard to get my message out. However, again, it is...I won't say impossible, because I believe everything is possible in Canada, but it's extremely hard. For me, in the north, I feel like in my world what I'm trying to do is still very much “pioneering”. There are still new opportunities every day that are happening, but I need to be connected with my world and my country and my province, and that has been lacking. It's been very difficult the last five years.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you for sharing that, Ms. Kolt.

Now, we've heard, and I know you've heard; a number of us have heard that we are slated to have a new reporter, hopefully starting early in the new year. However, many of us have also made clear, given how vast our region is, how diverse our communities are, the importance of supporting this reporter and not just throwing him or setting him or her up to fail. Could you speak to what kinds of supports are needed to make sure that we have a real presence that can stick it out for the long term, as is part of the CBC's mandate?

[Crystal Kolt]

Personally, my opinion is that it goes back to the term “death by a thousand cuts”. If you think of any one of us within our lives, if you were trying to do what you were doing in an area that is more than half of your province, by yourself, how can you possibly do everything that needs to be done—see everything, connect with everybody—alone? You need to have the supports.

We can do a lot. Volunteers do a lot, but we're not talking about volunteer positions. We are talking about professionals. We need professional journalists and support teams around to help support the voices of our country.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Ms. Kolt. I look forward to asking you more in the second round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Niki.

I now go to the second round, which is a five-minute round.

I begin with the Conservatives and Mr. Gourde for five minutes, please.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Ms. Charette, what do you think is the distinction between Radio-Canada and the CBC?

Radio-Canada seems to be sensitive to its audience and has really good ratings. Its business is doing well. The CBC may not operate on the same format. You can tell me whether or not that's true, but the CBC's business doesn't seem to work as well.

What in particular distinguishes the public broadcaster's anglophone programming from its francophone programming?

[Annick Charette]

I won't be surprising you by saying that, for francophones, it's a matter of survival. There may be much broader market offerings for anglophones, and other services may appeal more to the anglophone audience. What concerns me is that the anglophone audience now can't tell the difference between what comes from United States and what's made in Canada. I'm also concerned that anglophones consume media in a piecemeal way.

The obligation to be competitive is one thing, while the obligation to represent society is another. Representing Canadian society means giving it a voice through productions that have yet to be made and that will represent specific issues for Canadians.

I don't know if that kind of production will appeal to the public at large. However, if 25,000 people love opera and you offer them that content, you've effectively achieved your objective. I don't know whether you have to offer more opera-related content, but that's diversity. Broadcaster choices are important.

Quebec has a captive audience because there aren't a lot of French-language offerings. The supply on the anglophone side is extensive, but that has nothing to do with mission or performance. If you assess the public broadcaster based solely on its performance, you've lost sight of the goal of its mandate.