Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone.

This is meeting number 143 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

Before we begin, I will give you some housekeeping notes.

For those of us in the room, there is a little round decal on the desk in front of you. That's where you put your device. If you don't, it interferes with the transmission of sound. There's a little square instruction thing that you need to read as well, to know what to do.

No one is allowed to take photographs of the committee, as it's on the screen here. Later on, you can get them online.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, and that is creating a bit of a problem for us, as two of our witnesses who are meant to testify this morning are still having trouble getting online. I will tell you who those two are.

We're going to start, and then, hopefully, the sound people will have helped them to get online.

They are the witnesses representing the Fédération nationale des communications et de la culture and the Syndicat des travailleuses et travailleurs de Radio-Canada.

They are having trouble getting online.

We will start, and then I will suspend when it's time for us to get them on. They can come on, and then we'll have to get them to present their five minutes so that we can carry on. If we wait and wait, we'll never start the meeting on time. Let's move on.

I want to remind everyone that when you speak, you must speak through the chair. Questions are addressed through the chair, and answers are addressed through the chair.

Again, all of the connection tests, with the exception of those two, have been done.

We will begin with the first witnesses, who are from the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. We have Kris Sims and Ryan Thorpe. Both of you can share the time, but you have five minutes to present. I'll give you a 30-second shout-out, literally, so that you can wrap up. If you don't get to finish what you have to say, you can get your points in during the question and answer period.

Who is going to speak for you? Ms. Sims, please begin. You have five minutes. Thank you.

[Kris Sims, Director, Alberta, Canadian Taxpayers Federation]

Thank you for the invitation to speak with you all today.

My name is Kris Sims. I'm the Alberta Director for the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. I'm here with my colleague Ryan Thorpe, the investigative journalist for the CTF.

We are here to speak for thousands of hard-working taxpayers who want to defund the CBC. This needs to happen for three important reasons: the cost of the CBC, the fact that nearly nobody is watching the CBC, and the fact that journalists should not be paid by the government.

First is the cost. The CBC is getting $1.4 billion from taxpayers this year. That money could instead pay the salaries of around 7,000 paramedics and 7,000 police officers. That money could instead pay for groceries for about 85,000 Canadian families, for a year. Instead, taxpayers are paying $1.4 billion so the CBC can hand out huge bonuses, get microscopic ratings and overpay its out-of-touch executives.

CBC CEO Catherine Tait refused to tell this committee if she will take a severance when she leaves the state broadcaster. Tait considers that to be a “personal matter”. It's not personal if it's taxpayers' money. Documents obtained by the Canadian Taxpayers Federation show that Tait is paid between $460,000 and $551,000 this year, with a bonus of up to 28%. That is a bonus of $154,000. That bonus is more than the average Canadian family earns in a year.

Around this time last year, the CBC asked for more money. After that, just before Christmas, the CBC announced layoffs in its newsrooms. I've worked in many newsrooms, and getting let go is not a bowl of cherries, but what about the bonuses at that same time? Documents obtained by the CTF show that the CBC handed out bonuses costing $18 million. As the CBC fan group Friends of Canadian Media put it, “This decision is deeply out of touch and unbefitting of our national public broadcaster.”

Thank you to the members from the Conservatives, the Bloc and the NDP who voted to hold the CBC to account for these bonuses.

Let's take a look at viewership. According to its own latest quarterly report, CBC news network's audience share is 1.7%, meaning that more than 98% of Canadians are choosing to not watch CBC's news channel. We have some breaking news here in committee. Documents obtained by the CTF show that the CBC's supper hour news audience is so small that it's difficult to measure. In Toronto, the CBC's six o'clock news has an audience of 0.7% of that city's population. CBC's entertainment barely rates better than its news. The Murdoch Mysteries, which is not produced by the CBC, pulls in its biggest audience, with about 1.9% of the population.

Last, journalists should not be paid by the government. A free press means journalists free from government. A journalist who is paid by the government is in a direct conflict of interest. You cannot hold the powerful government to account when you're counting on the powerful government for your paycheque. The CBC is government-funded media. This government funding has warped the media landscape for decades, putting private media companies at a disadvantage, and that affliction is catching. Other media companies are also on government payroll now. At the same time, trust in journalism has plummeted. About 55% of Canadians now think journalists are “purposely trying to mislead people by saying things they know are false or gross exaggerations”.

Canadians need a press that is free from government, so the people can hold their government to account.

The CBC is a huge waste of money. Nearly nobody is watching it, and journalists should not be paid by the government. It is time to defund the CBC.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much. You're right on time.

I now go to Les amis des médias canadiens, Marla Boltman and Sarah Andrews, and we can begin.

Which one of you will be speaking, or will you both be speaking?

[Marla Boltman, Executive Director, Friends of Canadian Media]

Hi, it's Marla Boltman here. I will be speaking first, and Sarah will follow.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

All right. You both still have five minutes between you. Thank you.

Ms. Boltman, please go ahead.

[Marla Boltman]

Madam Chair and committee members, thank you for inviting us to appear this morning.

Again, my name is Marla Boltman. I am the executive director of Friends of Canadian Media, a non-profit, non-partisan citizens movement that stands up for Canadian voices in Canadian media.

Joining me, again, is Sarah Andrews, our director of government and media relations, who will conclude our opening remarks in French.

For almost 40 years, our organization has proudly defended the CBC and the essential role it plays in Canadian public life. Our supporters fall into the 75% of Canadians who told pollsters either that they like the job the CBC is already doing or that they want to keep the CBC, but with improvements.

Let me offer you some straight talk. Like many of you, our organization was here for the big cuts to CBC under the Mulroney government. In fact, it's how we got our start. We were here for the Chrétien cuts; we were here for the Harper cuts, and we are still here waiting for the Trudeau government to provide the money it promised during the last election.

In real, inflation-adjusted dollars, these cuts and unfulfilled commitments have amounted to a 36% reduction in the CBC's parliamentary appropriation. In the meantime, expectations and demands have gone up. Indigenous programming has taken on a bigger role, and the need to improve French-language services has resulted in 44% of the parliamentary appropriation now going to Radio-Canada. All of these important improvements have meant less for English services.

Media technology has also changed. A much leaner CBC has had to follow its audiences onto the Internet while still serving them on television and radio. The money to do that had to come from somewhere. It was cannibalized from CBC English television.

Since 2013, we've seen a 40% reduction in real budget dollars for English TV. New spending is down from $212 million to $114 million in the last 10 years. Like you, we have stood witness to this decline and this shrinkflation, in which Canadians keep getting fed a smaller and smaller English television offering, and we've watched while the prime-time audience for our cash-starved English TV dropped from 6.8% to 5.2%, also in 10 years. Those are the numbers everyone cites, but in the meantime, audience ratings for CBC Radio One, cbcnews.ca and all Radio-Canada services remain top-notch.

The way to move all Canadians into the category of fully satisfied with CBC is going to require two things, adequate long-term funding and vision. We need these things now, because a strong national public broadcaster is especially vital at a time when our entire Canadian media sector and our national sovereignty are under great threat.

That's the message our supporters, your constituents, want us to bring to you. They don't want to talk about defunding the CBC, eliminating local news or silencing talented Canadian storytellers. What they do want to talk about is how the CBC can serve its audiences and their voices and values. They're looking to us and they're looking to you to help find solutions that lift everyone.

[Sarah Andrews, Director, Government and Media Relations, Friends of Canadian Media]

Last week, Catherine Tait appeared before this committee for the fifth time this year.

It's time we moved on. Instead we should be working together to create an even better public broadcaster for its shareholders, who are the Canadian public at large.

We suggest that we begin as follows.

First, there should be no partisanship when it comes to CBC/Radio-Canada. The public broadcaster should serve all Canadians, regardless of political allegiance.

Second, governance may seem like a dry political issue, but it is a fundamental one. Board appointments should be much more independent. It should be up to the board of directors, not the Prime Minister, to hire and fire the chairperson.

Furthermore, Parliament should negotiate a long-term charter, much like the BBC charter, with the CBC/Radio-Canada board. That charter would include commitments respecting performance, public responsibility and funding.

Third, CBC/Radio-Canada should focus on producing local and regional news. It would do so by sending more staffers into the field, which would require more money. The hiring of 25 journalists across the country with money provided under the Online News Act would be a good start, and we must have more.

Fourth, we advise against the strategy of attempting to salvage what we can by cancelling entertainment programming for both anglophone and francophone audiences. CBC/Radio-Canada is the best possible platform for broadcasting flagship programs that tell our stories. People don't want to lose that programming. On the contrary, they want more content.

The time has come to protect our public broadcaster for the sake of our democracy, for our cultural sovereignty and for generations to come.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much. That was great.

Now we're going to go to the third witness, who is Brigitte Wellens, from Voice of English-speaking Québec. She is the executive director of this organization.

Ms. Wellens, you have five minutes, please.

[Brigitte Wellens, Executive Director, Voice of English-speaking Québec]

Madam Chair and committee members, thank you so much for this invitation to allow me to talk about this very important subject.

As was previously mentioned, my name is Brigitte Wellens. I'm the executive director of a community organization named Voice of English-speaking Québec, or VEQ, which was established in 1982. We're a not-for-profit community organization dedicated to preserving and promoting the interests of a dynamic English-speaking community in the greater Quebec City region.

An important point to note concerning our population is that every five years, 20% to 25% of our region's population is renewed by newcomers. Local media is not only a critical part of their integration process; it's at the heart of our community's vitality. Without it, communities experience a progressive erosion of their collective capacity to celebrate local stories and achievements, or to address issues and challenges that affect community members in their daily lives across the province of Quebec.

Our community represents only 2.3% of the greater Quebec City region, or just over 17,000 individuals in the local population. It's spread out over a very wide area, and there are no large concentrations of our population in one specific area of the region, so getting information to people in a timely manner in a way that's accessible to all is absolutely critical.

Funding should allow CBC to adequately resource local stations and allow them to be responsive to emerging news, stories, local events and activities in order to promote what's happening on the ground. We're a grassroots organization, and I believe that CBC should be a partner with us in promoting and improving community vitality in the regions across the province. It should also have the adequate resources to allow it, as a public broadcasting corporation, to be an active participant, alongside local stakeholders and community members, to have a positive impact on our community's vitality across the province.

In terms of representation and local voices, as the executive director of the organization for the past nine years and a board member for seven years prior to that, I've seen the constant decline of local resources. A lot of our content isn't recorded in Quebec City, and I've seen the decline in participation by local CBC staff in our events and our activities that bring together community members across our region.

It's critically important not only that we improve access to the content that's produced, but also that we improve the financial resources that the CBC has access to. We hear about things like defunding the CBC. On the contrary, I think that we should improve or increase the funding it has access to. When we compare it to the rest of broadcasters and news producers across the world, we're lacking in funding in terms of receiving 40% to 50% less than what other broadcasters and producers are receiving. Per capita, we should be looking at how much the CBC is actually getting in terms of listenership and viewership.

I can't say this enough. Our newcomers go to the source that is the most accessible for them. In Quebec City, that's CBC Radio One, but it gets peppered with little clips from other regions, because it is the only source for local news and content in the entire province of Quebec. I'm talking about six or seven hours per week. I would like to see an improvement and not a decline in these services and have them be more responsive on the ground in the local stories and news that are in the hearts of everyone in our community.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Ms. Wellens.

I'm going to suspend to see if we can get Madame Charette on. This is the one person whose sound was a bit iffy. We'll suspend.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We're still having a problem getting Madame Charette on, so I think we will move on.

We're going to go to the questions and answers. This first segment is a six-minute segment. The six minutes include the question and the answer.

I will begin with Mr. Kurek for the Conservatives for six minutes, please.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair. I appreciate the conversation that we're having today.

Mrs. Sims and Mr. Thorpe, we heard from the incoming CEO of CBC this past Wednesday that she had not heard any conversations from Canadians about defunding the CBC. I'm wondering if that resonates or lines up with what you and your organization have heard about this subject over the last number of years.

[Kris Sims]

With respect, no, that doesn't line up with what we're seeing with our organization. The Canadian Taxpayers Federation has been pushing for the CBC to be defunded. We hear from our supporters every single day, and there are thousands of them who want the CBC to be defunded, so, no, that does not line up with what our supporters want.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I found it interesting when I heard that response on Wednesday. We had Ms. Catherine Tait, the current CEO, whose term comes to an end in the next month or so. Through an access to information request, it was revealed that she noted that there was momentum that was growing in the “defund the CBC” movement across Canada. I'm wondering if you have seen, over the last number of years.... You mentioned that you hear often from folks involved with your organization. Has there been momentum growing to “defund the CBC”?

[Kris Sims]

Do you mean the “defund the CBC” movement? Yes, for sure. I've been a journalist for most of my adult life, largely in mainstream media, in and out of newsrooms, largely here in Ottawa. I can tell you that there wasn't really a serious movement to defund the CBC 15 years ago, maybe not even 10 years ago. Now you literally see it on T-shirts, bumper stickers, etc.

People are pushing for the state broadcaster to be defunded for two reasons. First, it's a huge waste of money, period; $1.4 billion is an astonishing amount of money. Second, journalists shouldn't be paid by the government. It doesn't matter if the journalists are right-wing, left-wing or space aliens. They shouldn't be paid by the government, because it's a direct conflict of interest, so there is definitely a movement that's growing.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

It sounds like something else that Justin Trudeau has broken.

I am curious, when it comes to the.... Quite often, we hear from folks who would support the CBC and, in fact, even those who would acknowledge some of the challenges that exist, whether it be the bonuses that were paid out, the expense, their not liking the programming or their acknowledging the bias that exists. However, they say, “Well, we need it, because that's how Canadians get their news.” I'm wondering if you could comment on that feedback that quite often gets parroted, especially here in the nation's capital.

[Kris Sims]

That's a great question. It reminds me of the statement that we really appreciated, coming from the Friends of Canadian Media, when they said that those bonuses—18 million dollars' worth of bonuses—were unbecoming of a public broadcaster. We agree. That is unbecoming. I think it's the bonuses that are really attracting a lot of the attention here.

However, if so many people are watching the CBC and getting all of their news from the CBC, why is 1.7% of the population of Toronto watching it? It's even lower in Calgary and Edmonton, out west. If the CBC costs us $1.4 billion per year and nobody is watching, is it still a waste of money? Yes, it is.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

To those who would say, “Well, it's required for the preservation of Canadian culture,” how would you respond?

[Kris Sims]

I find that odd, because there are a lot of private media companies, and there are a lot of other forms of entertainment and news that Canadians are choosing to watch, listen to and share. The idea that a government-funded broadcaster is going to be the keeper of Canadian culture is kind of insulting to people's intelligence and their own choice. If I don't watch the CBC, does that mean I'm not Canadian? That's absurd. So, no, Canadians are choosing to not watch the CBC; ergo, we don't need it, and we should defund it.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

It was recently revealed that the government spent over $970,000 to produce a podcast that ended up having only 229 subscribers. That's a lot of dollars per subscriber. It was specifically Stats Canada that paid close to $1 million. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts or feedback about nearly $1 million spent to produce a podcast. Many people do this from their phones, walking down the street, or whatever the case is, for virtually no cost, yet the government spent a million bucks and only garnered a subscriber base of 229. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts or feelings about that.

[Kris Sims]

Off the top, quickly, I actually thought I misheard that when I first heard about it. I thought it was the government funding other people's podcasts, or whatever they were, but no, this was a government department's podcast. It is astonishing that it's spending a nickel on that.

I'm going to turn this over to my colleague Ryan Thorpe. He's the investigative journalist for the CTF.

Ryan, you were doing some digging on that. It was astonishing to see.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Excuse me. Speak through the chair. Thank you.

You have only 15 seconds.

[Ryan Thorpe, Investigative Journalist, Canadian Taxpayers Federation]

I'll just add quickly that we dug up these records. The costs are ridiculous. They're producing podcasts no Canadian would ask or be willing to pay for. It's reflected in the subscriber count, and it is clearly a massive waste of our money.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I'll now go to the next questioner from the Liberals, who is Mr. Coteau.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

I'll start off with Mrs. Sims and Mr. Thorpe. Thank you for being here.

I want to acknowledge that I think many Canadians agree with you that the bonuses were unacceptable. I acknowledge that. We had a conversation in this room, and it was very clear, especially considering the economic situation our country is in and the challenges that Canadians are facing, that it's something that did not sit well with Canadians. I agree with that.

I want to talk about the CBC as a concept, though. Back in 1936, when the Conservatives established the CBC, it was there to bring the country together and to connect it. If you remove the dollar amount and the bonuses, do you agree with the concept of CBC?