Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[Kris Sims]

It's still a conflict of interest, and I say this not from a taxpayer's perspective. We wouldn't want to spend money on a media company, but we don't want to spend money on companies anyway. We want no corporate welfare. We don't care what the companies are producing.

As a long-time journalist, it is just a fundamental conflict of interest for a journalist to be paid by the government. It doesn't matter if it's a Conservative government or an NDP government, or a left-leaning or right-leaning journalist. It is just fundamentally a conflict of interest for the media to be funded by the government.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I take that point.

The CBC is more than just a television broadcaster. It's more than just a deliverer of news. It does a lot more than that. For example, there's children's programming, election coverage in our country, the Olympics and radio. In the morning, when I wake up, I always open up the CBC Listen app. I listen to the morning news, but I also listen to the world news. That's how I receive my news. I don't think I've turned on the CBC channel for a long time. It's usually directly through YouTube, the website or the Gem app.

On the statistics you gave, I think Ms. Tait acknowledged that the viewership on television was dropping, but when you start to look at the online presence.... For example, on election night, there were nine million impression rates on the website. We're seeing a huge jump in online listening through radio, YouTube and the Gem app.

I think it would be fair to say that there may not be growth in television—across all broadcasters, we've seen a decline—but would you acknowledge that when it comes to its online presence, the numbers are actually increasing dramatically?

[Kris Sims]

There are a few things there.

One, again, is that we're opposed to government-funded media, period.

Two, when it comes to ratings, I found it really interesting that Ms. Tait and others at the CBC don't want to give us their subscriber numbers—not names or anything like that, because that would be crazy, but their Gem subscriber numbers. It's one of those things where the conversation goes:

“Okay. Nearly nobody's watching you on TV.”

“Oh, trust us. We're picking it up with Gem.”

“Okay. How many people do you have on Gem?”

“I'm sorry. I can't tell you that.”

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Right.

[Kris Sims]

It's really odd.

That's the main element. We don't want the government funding media, and we don't have the ratings for Gem or online.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

The other ratings are out there, though. They're very clear. I just went on to ChatGPT and put in, “What are the ratings for listenership and online viewing?” The numbers that come up are very new. I said nine million people tuned in online on election day. That says a lot. There's a lot of information out there.

Do you agree, for example, with the wage subsidy and the media support for...? For example, Postmedia has tens of millions of dollars.

You disagree with any media funding.

[Kris Sims]

Yes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

It doesn't matter if it's community-based, a small community newspaper.

[Kris Sims]

Journalists shouldn't be paid by the government, period.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Would you even disagree that a small community broadcaster that is not-for-profit, that's servicing a community by maybe providing information to a remote community on an emergency—things like that, local news...? You wouldn't support government supporting any of that at all?

[Kris Sims]

The government should not pay media companies, period. Then, if you start getting into things like “What about indigenous programming?”, the CBC spends a fraction of a percentage point on indigenous programming.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Right.

[Kris Sims]

They pay more in executive bonuses.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

How do we deliver media, or, I would say, news? There's a difference sometimes between what a journalist may put out and just general broadcasting for information—the weather, for example.

Canada's such a large country. How would you propose getting that information out there to all Canadians who maybe don't have access to the Internet because of where they are, but would have access to radio? How would you propose that people get that information?

[Kris Sims]

Is that on an emergency basis?

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

That's just on a regular basis—community information. Do you think government should be supporting getting information out to small, rural communities that normally wouldn't have enough capacity through a business approach to support a local media agency?

[Kris Sims]

Again, we're talking about the behemoth that is the CBC, $1.4 billion—

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

No, I'm talking about just of the concept—

[Kris Sims]

Just to be clear, you're whittling it down to this tiny little keyhole of getting emergency information to people in the north—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Order, please.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

You just said you disagree with all support for the media.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Order, please.

[Kris Sims]

I'm sorry, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

The time is up, Mr. Coteau.

I'm going to move now to the Bloc Québécois.

We go now to Martin Champoux for six minutes, please.

Martin.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'd like to say that I'm extremely disappointed not to be able to have Ms. Charette involved in this exchange. It was extremely important that we be able to ask her questions. Her expertise and point of view would have made a major contribution to this discussion. I think Ms. Charette should try to reconnect to the meeting from another computer, in the hope, of course, that the problem is with her computer, not with the earpiece she's been provided. I hope we can hear what she has to say by the end of this meeting.

In the meantime, I'd like to speak with the representatives of the Friends of Canadian Media. We haven't heard a great deal from them, except during their opening remarks.

First, good afternoon to you both. I'd like to hear your opinions regarding the comments that have been made since this meeting began.