Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[Sarah Andrews]

We have lots of opinions. It will surprise no one that we definitely disagree with the Canadian Taxpayers Federation. We certainly agree that the bonuses are unacceptable, and the committee has said the same thing. I think most Canadians are also opposed to the idea of handing out bonuses. That being said, it's time to move on to other things and to work together to improve CBC/Radio-Canada.

I have some statistics for you. I would remind you that 78% of Canadians want to keep CBC/Radio-Canada. They want an improved version of their broadcaster. I would add that 67% of self-identifying Conservative voters want to keep CBC/Radio-Canada. I can't speak for Ms. Charette, but francophone communities in this country want to keep Radio-Canada for its news programs, entertainment programs and all other information programming.

We are also told that the government funds CBC/Radio-Canada and pays its journalists. However, under its mandate, which is set forth in the Broadcasting Act, the corporation's editorial independence is guaranteed. CBC/Radio-Canada doesn't receive directions from the government or Parliament, apart from what its mandate provides. Its licensing conditions are set by the Canadian Radio-television and Television Commission, the CRTC, and salaries are paid by CBC/Radio-Canada. The separation between the public broadcaster and our elected representatives needs to be acknowledged.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I think it's important to let you clarify that point in response to this kind of populist disinformation purveyed by the proponents of the idea of cutting funding to, or defunding CBC/Radio-Canada. I didn't want to do it myself, Ms. Andrews. That would've been less appropriate. Thank you for that.

Having said that, I'd like to discuss the impact that reduced funding or defunding would have, since that's the purpose of this study. I talk a lot about culture, but we obviously discuss journalism too in the remote regions, and it's currently in a precarious state. CBC/Radio-Canada's role in covering regional news is extremely important for both its own point of view and that of other regional media.

I'd like to hear your views on the potential consequences of defunding the public broadcaster or cutting its budget.

[Sarah Andrews]

We find it very hard to understand why the idea of reducing or cancelling funding for CBC/Radio-Canada is a priority for some people, when, as I said, many surveys show that's not what Canadians want.

According to our own survey, which we conducted last December, a majority of Canadians even get their news from CBC/Radio-Canada. The CBC is the news source that English-speaking Canadians trust most. For the francophone population, particularly in Quebec, La Presse is the primary source, but Radio-Canada is a very close second. I think Radio-Canada is probably one of the only news sources that francophone communities outside Quebec have on the ground.

I've previously done interviews with Radio-Canada in Saskatchewan, Alberta and British Columbia, and I'm sure the member has conducted many as well. We can't be sure that services will continue if funding is reduced or cancelled. When Ms. Tait appeared here, we heard her say how close the two institutions are, but they operate separately at the editorial level. Radio-Canada has its own ways of doing things, but, from the standpoint of resources in the field, we know they're very close and often work together.

The other question that isn't often asked is whether the anglophone majority alone would agree to pay for the francophone population. I'm sure anglophones would have something to say if everyone were asked to pay for a service offered solely to francophones.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

The crazy idea of continuing to pay for French-language services was recently proposed by a Conservative member.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds, Martin.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Andrews, please allow me to ask Ms. Wellens a question. She spoke on behalf of Quebec anglophones just as you spoke for francophones outside Quebec.

Ms. Wellens, what other reliable news sources would anglophones in Quebec outside Montreal have if the CBC disappeared?

I have a few seconds left, but I'd like to hear your views on that.

[Brigitte Wellens]

A local newspaper called The Quebec Chronicle Telegraph is available in some places, but they can't rely on that print media outlet alone because the paper runs to only six to eight depending on the week. I believe it has at least 2,000 subscribers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. The time is up.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I go now to the New Democrats.

Ms. Ashton, you have six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much. My question is for Friends of Canadian Media.

Over the last 15 years, over 500 newsrooms have shuttered across the country. That means thousands of jobs in every community across Canada gone. Those stories are not being told, especially ones that speak truth to power. These media deserts are unacceptable. In communities like mine, we haven't been able to depend on the CBC, whose studio has largely remained shuttered, with intermittent coverage over the years.

What responsibility does the CBC have to invest in local and regional journalism, so that journalists are telling our stories based in our regions, not in Winnipeg, not in Toronto, but in regions across northern and rural Canada?

[Marla Boltman]

We have a number of tools in our tool box that we can look to use to support news media across Canada. We have the Online News Act, which will inject $100 million per year into the Canadian news media ecosystem. We've already seen that CBC is taking that money and putting it out into the smaller communities. It announced that a few weeks ago. It's putting 25 journalists' boots on the ground in the western provinces.

Our goal is for the CBC to be on the ground in local communities, because we know how important local news is. We've heard it from other people on this call, and we're going to say it again here. We feel that on the ground in the communities is how we build trust, and this is how we learn about each other.

If we don't have news invested in local communities, people tend to defer to national news, and national news tends to be more polarized. As a result of that, we're seeing people turning away from the news, because they don't want to hear about the polarized news; they want to hear what's going on in their communities. If you combine that with the disinformation and the misinformation that we're seeing online, we're seeing a growing mistrust in public institutions.

We think that the CBC has a responsibility to be in local communities to stop the tidal wave of misinformation and ensure that Canadian communities have a place to meet. If we're not talking to each other, then we're not meeting, and then that impacts our ability to have a healthy democracy.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you for sharing that critical perspective.

I'd like to ask Ms. Andrews a question.

The leader of the Conservative Party often says he wants to cut or cancel the CBC's funding, but he never says he'd like to cut Radio-Canada's budget. He tries to create the illusion that the CBC can be virtually eliminated without destroying Radio-Canada. Even the Conservatives understand how important Radio-Canada is for francophone communities in and outside Quebec.

Ms. Andrews, how can we explain to the Conservative Party that the CBC's anglophone services are important too?

[Sarah Andrews]

I'll repeat what I said earlier. You mustn't forget that the CBC and Radio-Canada share a single mandate, which is to inform, enlighten and entertain Canadians. That includes francophone populations outside Quebec and anglophone populations in Quebec.

We heard Ms. Wellens say that the CBC is one of the only news sources for anglophones who live in Quebec. As I said earlier, and as Ms. Tait also said when she appeared before the committee last week, although the CBC and Radio-Canada do their jobs separately, they share many resources in carrying out their mandate and producing their programming. The idea that you can avoid using Radio-Canada's resources if the CBC is defunded is utterly unthinkable.

In our opening remarks a little earlier, we mentioned that Radio-Canada currently receives 44% of CBC/Radio-Canada funding. That's an extremely large percentage. Rather than reduce or cancel funding, we think Parliament should invest more in CBC/Radio-Canada and in local and regional news to further support the mandate of serving the Canadian public all across the country. I know this is a very important issue for you, madam, and for the people in your riding as well.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much.

We've heard a lot of discussion about what the mandate of the CBC/Radio-Canada should be. We in the NDP have been clear that a strong CBC/Radio-Canada benefits all Canadians. A strong and thriving CBC/Radio-Canada ensures that francophones and indigenous communities can hear the media in their own language. A strong and thriving CBC/Radio-Canada does not prioritize high-level executive bonuses over workers. A strong and thriving CBC/Radio-Canada does not rely on journalists in Toronto or Winnipeg to tell the stories of people here in northern Manitoba and elsewhere in northern and rural Canada. What do we need to do to ensure a strong and thriving CBC?

This is again for the Friends of Canadian Media.

[Marla Boltman]

We need to start with what we mentioned in our opening remarks. We need to take the partisanship out of this. CBC is meant to serve all Canadians, regardless of who they vote for or what part of the country they live in.

The issue of governance, while it may seem like a bit of dry policy matter, is fundamental to the public broadcaster's success. Appointments to the CBC board should be far more independent, in the same manner, let's say, that we appoint judges. The board, not the Prime Minister, should hire and fire the president. As is done with the BBC, perhaps every seven to 10 years, our Parliament should undertake a charter review process that includes performance commitments, public accountability and secure funding.

More than anything, I think we would argue that what the CBC needs is long-term, sustainable funding. We are talking about an organization that we are asking to have a vision, set objectives and execute on those objectives when they don't know what their budget is from year to year.

Friends of Canadian Media has 10 employees. We have approximately a $2.6-million budget. As the executive director, if I can't do that without knowing what my budget's going to be for a bit more than one year, then I don't know how the CBC can do it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I now go to the second round. The second round is a five-minute round.

We begin with the Conservatives and Mr. Gourde for five minutes, please.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mrs. Sims, what do you think triggered the decline in the CBC's ratings? Since when have they been falling? Is it 5, 10 or 15 years? Has it been gradual?

Is there a particular factor that has caused Canadian anglophones in the other provinces to turn away from the CBC's programming and perhaps to a more American market?

I don't know the anglophone market; that's why I'm asking you the question.

[Kris Sims]

I'm sorry that I don't speak French well enough to answer you in French.

That's a very good question. Generally speaking, in my experience as a journalist, it's been declining steadily and rapidly. However, I do not have the hard data going back, say, 20 years on CBC viewership. I would have to go back and get that for you. We have only current data on viewership.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

The CBC's current programming ratings are a disaster—we can't deny it, and it's sad—compared to those of Radio-Canada, which is a francophone market leader. However, given all the money that's invested, the CBC could be an anglophone market leader and an example for promoting Canadian culture and expertise.

It's programs could even be picked up in the United States, but the opposite happens. Virtually no Canadian program is picked up elsewhere than in Canada. Furthermore, the ones that are produced by the CBC unfortunately aren't watched in Canada.

Why is that?

[Kris Sims]

Why are people not watching the CBC?

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Yes.

[Kris Sims]

That's a great question.

From hard data, we know that, generally speaking, trust in journalism is at an all-time low. I think 55% of Canadians now believe journalists are saying things they know to be false, or gross exaggerations. I'm a journalist, and that was shocking to me, because you try to make sure you don't even get somebody's name wrong, or accidentally get a date wrong. However, now we have the majority of Canadians distrusting journalists to the extent they feel they're being deliberately misled.

I'm not sure why people are tuning out.

I will also point this out to you: You made a reference to imported programming from other countries being aired on the CBC. Very interestingly, again, from what we can tell, Murdoch Mysteries is their top-rated fiction show for entertainment. That's not produced by the CBC. I tried to find the top 15 shows—not news but just shows—and they ranked 16th. It was The Great British Bake Off, which is obviously produced in the U.K. It wasn't even produced by the CBC. That was another import.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Wellens, earlier you said you represent the people of the Quebec City area. Did you mean the greater Quebec City region, including the Chaudière—Appalaches region or just the city itself?

[Brigitte Wellens]

It's more the national capital region, which therefore includes part of the Rive-Sud.