Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2024

[Brigitte Wellens]

As the only local source of reliable English information for not only long-standing community members but also newcomers to our region—I repeat, every five years, 25% of our population is renewed by newcomers—it's absolutely critical that CBC remain a vital part of our community's vitality in ensuring it fills the role that has been given to it in being able to share news stories, local issues, challenges and celebrations.

My community organization, as with all the other community organizations that do the same work as I do in other regions across the province, relies on CBC to share the work we're doing across the community, because we don't have the capacity to do so all by ourselves.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. We've gone one minute over this time.

Now I'm going to go to the next Conservative.

You have five minutes, please, Mr. Jivani.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have some questions for Mrs. Sims and Mr. Thorpe.

Do you think the CBC respects the Canadian taxpayer?

[Kris Sims]

With respect, I think that's a matter of opinion. A lot of people say they may not like the programming on the CBC and perhaps that is why they're choosing to no longer watch it. From Canadian taxpayers' perspective, it's due to those three main points: the cost of the CBC, the fact that nearly nobody is watching it anymore, and the fact that journalists should not be paid by the government. That's what is really important here.

As far as their opinions on their programming go, whether it's news, fiction or entertainment, we would leave that up to Canadians.

[Ryan Thorpe]

If I could quickly add to that, the Canadian Taxpayers Federation has an ongoing legal challenge against the CBC. I filed an access to information request trying to see how much of those bonuses, the $18 million in bonuses that they handed out, went to the senior executive team. They're stonewalling the release of that information, claiming that it's personal information. Well, when it's taxpayers' money, taxpayers have every right to know how much the CBC is allocating to its senior executive bonuses.

We did launch that legal challenge. I certainly don't think it shows much respect for Canadian taxpayers, the fact that we pay the bills but they say that we don't get to know how much they're spending on senior executive bonuses.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

What I hear from Canadians in reaction to the current CEO, Ms. Catherine Tait's appearance before this committee, and also last week's appearance by the incoming CEO, Madame Bouchard, is a concern that no real answers were given in terms of any sort of accountability.

At this committee, we can point to ad revenue dropping, viewership dropping and trust in the CBC dropping, and there's no sense of, "Okay, we have to do something differently.”

Instead, we see them lining up and saying that they just need hundreds of millions more dollars. I do think that has created an impression—in my view, accurately—among a lot of Canadians that there's just not a lot of respect for the taxpayer and that there needs to be some value delivered in exchange for all of that money being given to the organization.

What's your view on that?

[Kris Sims]

I find it comes down to accountability, which is something the taxpayers federation is always pushing for.

The CEO, again, I will point out, makes about $500,000 a year. The bonus she's entitled to is up to more than what the average Canadian family earns in an entire year, in all of their paycheques, so the idea that they were not being accountable is deeply concerning to taxpayers, and we don't believe that this is fixable. We don't think that they should throw more money at the CBC. The very idea is astonishing, because right now they're getting $1.4 billion, and again, to put that into perspective, that's the grocery bills of 85,000 families for an entire year. It is an outrageous amount of money.

On the idea of throwing more money at them while they're being less and less accountable, we just don't think that is acceptable.

[Ryan Thorpe]

One quick point to add is that the CBC doesn't publish a sunshine list, but at the Canadian Taxpayers Federation, we file access to information requests, and we do that homework for them. Since 2015, the number of CBC employees who are earning six figures and up has increased by 231%.

We're looking at the bonuses, which are $132 million at the CBC since 2015. The six-figure salaries at the CBC have increased by 231%, and then we hear them come back time and time again, crying poor and asking for even more money, and I think, from the perspective of a lot of Canadian taxpayers, enough is enough.

[Kris Sims]

I think it's about 1,000 people they've added to the sunshine list.

[Ryan Thorpe]

There are an extra 1,000 people on their sunshine list.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

We've heard also today from this organization, Friends of Canadian Media, another ask for more money, and that more money is going to solve all of the problems. They've also said, though, that they're unhappy with pretty much every prime minister in my lifetime. Noone has given them enough money.

It sounds to me like this is a hustle. It's an insatiable appetite. There's always going to be an ask for more. There's never going to be enough money. The more they fail, the more they need money. It's a circle that never stops. Do you think that's a fair interpretation?

[Kris Sims]

To be nice off the top, we do really appreciate what the Friends of Canadian Media said when they said that this decision for bonuses is “deeply out of touch and unbefitting of our national public broadcaster”.

We agree with that, but, again, putting more money into government-funded media is just the opposite of what taxpayers want. We want media to be funded privately through willing donations, subscriptions or a GiveSendGo. However you give money to the media of your choice is how this should play out. The notion of just giving more taxpayers' money to government-funded media is just not going to work.

[Ryan Thorpe]

For journalism to work, it must stand on its own two feet. It's the only way it works.

[Jamil Jivani, Conservative, Durham, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

I now go to Mr. Noormohamed with the Liberals for five minutes.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Sims, I'd like to start with you. I share your concern about the state of news and broadcast media in this country, and I'm wondering if you might share with me your views on foreign ownership of Canadian media. Do you think that's a reasonable way out of this, to let foreign buyers buy Canadian news outlets and media outlets?

[Kris Sims]

That's kind of getting a bit away from what we're here to point out about the funding of the CBC—

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

No, but I'm just trying to ask you. I'm just asking a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I consider that question to be in order. Thank you.

[Kris Sims]

Madam Chair, I'm concerned that I'm giving my opinion about who should fund media outside of government.

We believe that Canadians should pay for the media that they want to watch, by and large, and that private companies should raise money through ads, subscriptions and donations. For example, we have BlackLock's Reporter, which has an annual subscription. They do outstanding journalism, and there are only two hard-working Canadian journalists.

Whether or not you get money from outside, I don't know. I guess it would be up to the private company.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

I think there's a conversation to be had about this.

You have said, and I hear you loud and clear, that there should be no government subsidies, period, and there should certainly be no funding of subsidies to the media in Canada.

Are you concerned about the level of subsidy that Postmedia gets from the federal government, which they have now built into their business plan, and the fact that they are taking Canadian taxpayer dollars and also paying bonuses to executives that are probably, in some cases, 10, 15 or 20 times larger than what CBC pays its executives?

[Kris Sims]

To be clear, there are two separate streams here that we're talking about. There's the CBC, which is $1.4 billion, and then I think what you're talking about there is often referred to as the media bailout, if you can call it that, which is roughly $500 million. Is that what you're talking about?

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

No, there's a series of different.... If you read Postmedia's annual report, they disclose that government subsidy, of a variety of different kinds, is actually now part of their business plan.

Does that concern you?

[Kris Sims]

Yes, it concerns us very much. To be clear, it works out sometimes, depending on the media outlet, to roughly $30,000 per employee of a media company outside of the CBC. That is highly alarming. One, taxpayers shouldn't be paying for that. Two, journalists should not be paid by the government.

[Taleeb Noormohamed, Liberal, Vancouver Granville, BC]

You mentioned that you've done some work with True North.