Canadian Heritage Committee on May 24th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Martin, can you not hear?

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Once again, the sound quality is not good enough for the interpreters to do their job. I'm sorry.

[Michael Coteau]

Do you want me to unplug and try to...? I haven't changed anything.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I will pause, Michael. Maybe we can have the clerk find out what's going on from the technicians.

We'll suspend, please, everyone. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Anthony Housefather, can you take over for Michael, while this is being fixed?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Sure, Madam Chair. It seems today there are a lot of challenges with the headsets.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Yes, there are a lot of challenges.

Excuse me, but before I start my clock so you can begin, I would like to say that one of the things that are always requested of everybody is that you use your House of Commons computer and the House of Commons headset. This may actually be preferable if we don't want to keep stopping. The point is not only that we lose the time and I restart the clock, but that we lose the time on the big clock. We must finish here by 4:30. We need to remember that all of these little glitches aren't cute. They're just—

[Michael Coteau]

Just as a point, Madam Chair, everything I'm using here is government issued.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I know, but I think the House of Commons computer is quite different and works differently with the House of Commons headset. That's all I'm saying.

Please start, Mr. Housefather.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I am also using a House of Commons computer and House of Commons headset, and I was before as well. I think Mr. Coteau also is. Anyway, I appreciate your comments.

I'd like to start with Ms. Paré and Ms. Desrochers.

Could you tell us how francophone culture would be better protected by the adoption of Bill C‑11?

How does the Broadcasting Act protect francophone culture across Canada, including in Quebec?

[Marie-Julie Desrochers]

Yes, absolutely.

As we said in our presentation, the Broadcasting Act is responsible for the small miracle we are witnessing in Quebec. In Quebec, half of the music purchased by consumers is francophone. We have Quebec and francophone music on the radio, on satellite radio, on Stingray, on television, and so on. So we can say that our soundscape, or what we might call the soundtrack of our lives, is in our language. It has all the accents of home, in all their diversity.

So extending the application of the Broadcasting Act to online services is simply a matter of continuity. It's not a matter of affecting demand, what people consume. We have never forced people to buy records in the shops. It's not that at all. We don't want to prevent people from listening to what they want to listen to. If they want to listen to things from other countries, that's fine. We just need to make sure that among the content offered, highlighted or recommended by the platforms, there is local content. In fact, I think this can be seen as an extraordinary opportunity. Wouldn't personalization of content and algorithms allow more local content to be discovered by the right people? I'm sure that the platforms would be able to make extraordinary matches for us and allow people who like Québécois metal, for example, to discover it.

Commercial radio stations, for example, have often been criticized for being a bit restrictive in what they offer from Quebec. Last year, 900 records were released in Quebec. Every week, 15 to 30 music videos by Quebec artists are broadcast on the PalmarèsADISQ platform. I'm sure they all have an audience that might like to discover them. All we're asking is that an effort be made so that the platforms recognize that this content exists and that people like it.

I repeat that in a survey by Léger, a very well-known polling firm, we asked people who consume streaming music if they like to be offered local content, and 70% of them said yes. So it's not just a handful of people who are asking for that, it's the people of Quebec who are saying they like to be exposed to diverse content and they want to continue to do that online and not just on the radio.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I understand that. That's what I'm hearing from Quebeckers as well.

I would like to ask another question.

We talked about the policy that will be developed by the government. I have heard the opinion of several people, and they tell me that there should be a consultation process before this policy is implemented. Not only should there be a consultation with the government, but also with the CRTC.

Do you think it is important that a group like yours be consulted before this policy is finalized?

[Marie-Julie Desrochers]

We will gladly participate in the public debate. We will contribute to the best of our ability to any form of public debate by presenting data and arguments.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I have another question for you.

You've proposed some changes to the bill. Could you tell us about two amendments that are priorities for you so that we can look at them?

[Marie-Julie Desrochers]

We support all the proposals the coalition has made for diversity of cultural expression. In paragraph 3(1)(f), an attempt is seemingly made to impose requirements that may be deemed less important for online services, and that is a major concern for us. That would be my priority.

I would also bring up the CRTC. I will mention an element with two components—the return of public hearings and the appeal to the Governor in Council. Those two elements give civil society power and should make us come together.

We all have different opinions, and that includes the witnesses appearing today. I think that holding public hearings on orders on development and funding could only reassure all the parties, as they would have an appropriate space to express themselves. We think that appealing to the Governor in Council is a democratic method.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Desrochers, could you wind up, please? Thank you very much.

[Marie-Julie Desrochers]

Those mechanisms give Canadians a voice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Ms. Desrochers.

Now I go to Mr. Champoux for two and a half minutes, please.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to speak to Mr. Hatfield.

I fully understand that, when you are part of an unregulated world, it is always alarming when someone wants to start regulating that sector. So I understand your apprehensions.

That said, having heard the arguments that have been presented, including on the process the CRTC uses before regulatory measures—consisting of hearings—don't you think you could, on the contrary, have your voice heard better and be understood by preparing a good representation to the CRTC? Ultimately, could you not benefit from that regulation?

I will explain what I mean. It is often said that algorithms are a tool for discoverability, but it is not necessary to use algorithms to discover new artists. The recommendation can be made in various ways. That may be an area where you could present very worthwhile arguments to the CRTC when regulations are being developed.

Don't you think it would be better to try to determine how that those regulations can benefit you instead of hurting you?

[Matthew Hatfield]

Certainly we will continue to engage at every stage of this process throughout the CRTC consideration, throughout redefining CanCon and throughout implementing this legislation.

That said, good legislation is not about biting off as much as you possibly can and then setting some policy directions later. The scope that is still left open in this legislation is absolutely astonishing. We would much prefer to see some tighter legal limits applied before we move to that next stage, which would give us, and everyone in Canada, some confidence that this was not going to go very much off the rails.

Some of my colleagues here started talking about TikTok and how it has emerged fairly recently as a major force. TikTok is not broadcasting. It is very clearly individual user expression. The government has no business regulating content like that under this legislation.

For that matter, when we talk about who benefits under these systems, the majority of TikTok creators are creating for people outside of their country. That's true in English, in French and in most of the world's languages. The only way to force Canadians to consume mostly Canadian content through a system like that would be to really firewall them off from the rest of the world and that's not in anyone's interest. That's not even in the interest of Canadian creators who would be gutted and shut off from access to most of the rest of the world through that system.

Of course we'll continue to engage, but we think things like revenue targets and further limitations to exclude user content now are really important at this stage.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You may be reassured by precautions in the act whereby the legislation would be reviewed every five years, and by the return of the provision on using the Governor in Council, for example. Of course, this is the first iteration of a piece of legislation that will regulate the online portion of broadcasting. That could reassure you. You could decide to give the system a chance and to then evaluate the situation if you go in the wrong direction, don't you think?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Martin. I think we might want to get that answer the next time around. I'm sorry, but we finished the time.

Thank you, Mr. Hatfield.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Hatfield.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We will go to Peter Julian.

Go ahead for two and a half minutes, please, Peter.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thanks very much.

I'd like to go back to Mr. Kitt and come back to the issue of local news. Of course, we've seen across this country a loss of employment. As you mentioned at the beginning of Unifor's presentation, what it is doing is pulling apart the links that unite communities, when there is not the same degree of local news available.

You put forward a case for your amendment. I would also like to mention the concerns that have been expressed by some witnesses around proposed paragraph 3(1)(f), where the employment provisions within Bill C-11 are less for foreign-owned streaming platforms than they are for Canadian broadcasters.

I would like you to comment on those two issues, if you could.