Canadian Heritage Committee on May 24th, 2022

[Jérôme Payette]

Really, I think we need to get this bill adopted, and then we can go in front of the CRTC. That's where the details will be decided.

We need flexibility. We have to understand that the francophone music sector is a small sector. Sometimes we can be—I'm going to go back to the user-generated content, which is actually user-uploaded content in the act—too small compared to YouTube standards, and we can be considered as non-professionals or be considered not big enough to have an impact.

What we need, really, is having all of the activities looked at by the CRTC and then, with real information, experts deciding how we can promote.... What we want to do is work with the platforms in a way that suits their business model, so that for the content that Canadians want—and because they want francophone content and they want Canadian content—it gets to them. That's really the point of this process.

[Michael Coteau]

Thank you.

Chair, am I almost done?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have six seconds. You're finished, Michael. I'm sorry about that.

[Michael Coteau]

Thank you, everyone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

All right.

I think we have to finish at a certain time. We can have a third round, but not a full third round, so what I would do is start a third round with the Conservative Party for five minutes, with Ted Falk.

[Ted Falk, Provencher, CPC]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Madam Chair, I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, Martin. Go ahead.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Madam Chair, you said we would begin another round of questions, which won't be completed. I want to ensure that all parties have a chance to speak during that round.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I was thinking that we could cut everyone down to two and a half minutes and go with the full five people, or we could do five minutes for the Conservatives, five minutes for the Liberals, two and a half for the Bloc and two and a half for the NDP, and end it there. That would give us 15 minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

That's fine with me, provided it also suits the other members.

Can you guarantee that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Is everyone...?

All right; seeing no opposition, I will continue.

I'm sorry, Mr. Falk. I'll give you a new start. Go ahead.

[Ted Falk]

Thank you again, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses. I've enjoyed hearing your perspectives on this bill.

Ms. Fortier, I would like to get back to you, if I may. It seemed as though your previous thought was not completely fleshed out. If you'd like to finish what you were saying in the next minute or so, I would appreciate that.

[Morghan Fortier]

I can't even remember what I was thinking, since there's been so much discussed throughout.

I really do hear what Mr. Payette is expressing and saying. I think that even as we're talking, we need to be very careful that we are differentiating between new broadcasters and platforms. Netflix, Amazon and Apple are broadcasters. The difference is having a gatekeeper that is actually blocking....

You pitch. They green-light and they move forward. It's the broadcast system; it's just the current modern-day players.

Platforms are considerably different in that they are free, in most cases. You can take YouTube as an example. These are platforms through which content creators like us and other small companies are able to actually upload and self-distribute. It is absolutely a hustle to do that job. It's a tough go. It's 100% of the risk for 100% of the reward, but the sacrifice that you're making is the opportunity to fully own your IP and to be able to control that distribution.

I know it's not a perfect system. There are issues across the board between legacy broadcasters, new broadcasters and those platforms, but the algorithm manipulation is really something that we need to be incredibly careful of. To determine that certain content is more valid than other content and to give preference to one versus another is the crux of clause 4.2 and where it becomes so problematic.

[Ted Falk]

Okay. Thank you for that and thank you for your testimony.

Mr. Geist, you've written on Bill C-11, just as you did previously on Bill C-10. Can you articulate what you believe the government's objectives are and also how they should have drafted the bill to achieve those?

[Dr. Michael Geist]

Sure. Thanks for that question.

The government's stated objectives have focused on the large streaming services. I think we've heard a lot of talk about a lot of issues that frankly have very little to do with those large streaming services, so it's pretty clear that people look at this bill in a lot of different ways. Often the bill has little to do with some of their core concerns. I think the bill has become bogged down around user content. I think there are even some other issues that have come up that I think are important to recognize.

Mr. Bittle, for example, referenced the fact that Ian Scott said, "We already have those powers now" and suggested somehow that was being ignored. I think it's important to recognize, first, that while arguably the CRTC has had those powers, I think there are constitutional questions about it. Second, it does seem to me that if in fact they already have all these powers, why do you need this legislation at all? It's a CRTC issue, not a legislative issue.

I think we do need legislation, because there is value in updating, but quite clearly, once you have legislation that specifically identifies online undertakings and specifically identifies discoverability, it's a significant leap and it does make a change in what that regulatory outlook will look like.

I'd also quickly note that Mr. Champoux asked about the revenues being generated within the independent sector. The reality is that in Quebec, we know from the BCTQ that there was $2.5 billion in direct spending in Quebec just last year in film and TV production, including productions from both Netflix and Amazon. That's a record amount. In Ontario, Ontario Creates reports that it had its highest production levels to date ever, with nearly $3 billion in production spending, so I think the notion that somehow there is a crisis in spending is undermined by what we've actually experienced to date. In fact, the CMPA itself tells us that the largest source of funding now for English-language productions is foreign money. Money is coming in. There's a lot of spending.

That doesn't mean that we can't continue to address some of these issues. The reality is that we've heard compelling evidence that venturing into questions around user content, as this bill does, is a problem. I think we also need to recognize that the notion that somehow there are no contributions taking place and that we have a film and TV production sector in crisis is undermined by the actual experience and data that we've seen to date.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

I think time is now up, Mr. Falk.

[Ted Falk]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Now we'll go to the Liberals for five minutes, with Tim Louis.

[Tim Louis, Kitchener—Conestoga, Lib.]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses. I appreciate your time and your testimony.

I would like to start with Monsieur Payette from the Professional Music Publishers' Association.

You mentioned that publishing and songwriting are linked, and that's a sector that's seeing first-hand the effects of technology and media evolving and the impact it's had on artists. In your words, Monsieur Payette, you said that if musicians are not listened to, they're not paid, and I firmly believe that.

We've seen that the growth in the music business has benefited many international platforms and some of our larger Canadian artists, but we've also seen that it has not proportionately supported a large segment of our Canadian artists, artists from our own communities.

In your opening statement, you mentioned the struggle and that the percentages from songwriting royalties are down. Do you mind expanding on those numbers and the fact that if we're not supporting our Canadian artists at all levels, we won't have these stories to tell, we won't create the environment where our talent can grow, we won't have those international voices on the world stage, both literally and virtually?

[Jérôme Payette]

Thank you for that question.

According to SOCAN's figures, royalties paid to our members have declined by 24% since 2016. That's an enormous drop. We know that music publishers play an important role in developing talent and supporting author-composers in writing songs that can then become popular locally and internationally.

You have to understand that having a strong music industry and developing many and diverse talents gives us a chance to conquer bigger markets. Currently, as we've seen, all revenue is shared by a very small number of international artists. There's virtually no middle class because everyone is either too poor or extremely rich. There has been no egalitarian growth for everyone. It's the platforms that benefit most, and they don't do much for us.

[Tim Louis]

Thank you.

We've just heard testimony that some people believe that this legislation shouldn't be updated for years. Do you think our Canadian artists have that kind of time?

[Jérôme Payette]

No, I don't believe they do.

The CRTC hasn't done anything for the past 20 years. We've been consulted since 2016 on the modernization of the act. At the time, it was within the “Creative Canada” policy framework. After that, if memory serves me, there was a CRTC report, followed by the report from the group of experts on the Yale review panel. Then there was Bill C‑10.

We are now studying Bill C‑11. This will be followed by a period during which the CRTC will gather information, which is the usual way of proceeding. It will really take the time required to properly understand what's going on and take established objectives into account. That will lead to the creation of regulations.

It's therefore still going to take quite a while for this to reach people in the field, the entrepreneurs I represent and the artists they work with. We don't have time to wait much longer. Bill C‑11 has to be adopted and the CRTC has to remain flexible.

I don't know how much speaking time I have left, but I could say more about Ms. Fortier's comments, if you don't mind.

[Tim Louis]

Yes, please do.

[Jérôme Payette]

There are a lot of things on YouTube. We are interested in everything related to the music sector, because we represent the workers in that sector.

These platforms have teams that interact with the music industry. They decide on editorial policies and recommend content on the basis of these policies. Sometimes, this means editorial playlists established by company members, and sometimes algorithmic playlists. Some of the algorithmic playlists include songs chosen on the basis of the company's editorial policies. In short, these companies choose the winners and losers without giving consideration to anything other than their portfolio.

The Broadcasting Act defends cultural objectives. For francophone music, for all non-anglophone minority community groups and for groups seeking equity, the new act will really make it possible to improve things. The CRTC must be given the flexibility it needs to do its work. It has to be able to rely on real data and experts, and ignore anecdotal evidence. It has the resources to do this effectively for Canadians in order to give them access to more choice and more diversity.

Canada has been noteworthy for 50 years now in terms of protecting culture and the diversity of cultural expressions, and for combatting cultural uniformity. This has to continue. We can't allow the platforms to become a law unto themselves.