Canadian Heritage Committee on May 30th, 2022

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'd like to move on to Ms. Edwards from CACTUS.

You've been a strong proponent of community broadcasting. We've certainly seen an erosion in my community, an elimination of community television, except we have volunteers stepping up with New Westminster Community Television, and I'd like to shout out to their valuable work.

You mentioned I believe, if I understood it correctly, a 90% erosion of community television supports, and that effectively we've lost a wide variety of the community televison supports that existed before. How important is it to mend Bill C-11 so that we actually have a very clear obligation around community television that involves members of the community?

[Catherine Edwards]

In Bill C-11 our hope is that.... To give you an example, in 2016, the last time the CRTC reviewed its local and community TV policy, there were public notices of consultation that went out, and then stakeholders could weigh in. The not-for-profit community TV groups that are stepping in to fill service holes left in the wake of cable TV closures weren't even mentioned. There were questions of, well, we all know that cable community channels have been regionalized and this and that, but there was no mention that there's actually this viable other sector growing in its place.

What we are looking for in the act is recognition so that, when we talk about who's doing the work at the community level, not-for-profits are at the table. When the online streaming act goes into law and is referred to the CRTC to put in practice and there's more money in the Canadian broadcasting system, at that point we're hoping that there would be funding for a community access media fund that could fund community radio, community TV and new online digital types of media—virtual reality, video game production—where community groups are also involved. The funding comes at the next stage when there are clear definitions of what our role is supposed to be in the act.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

And then that's [Inaudible—Editor].

[Catherine Edwards]

That's right. Absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Can we mute the floor, please?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

I finished, so you don't need to mute me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Yes, you have.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I just don't like hearing my voice echoing across the room, that's all, so if people mute their mikes, that won't happen.

Thank you very much.

We go to the second round now. We're going to go to Ms. Thomas for the Conservatives for five minutes, please.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

My first question is for Mr. Benzie.

When we look at this bill, it could be divided up into a couple of different sections. One would be the monetary repercussions that it is going to have, in particular for large streaming companies, such as the Netflixes and Disneys of the world. However, we are also made aware that user-generated content, such as YouTube creators and creators on Facebook and TikTok, etc., are also captured, so there is a good chance that they, too, will be asked to contribute financially to the artists who function in a more traditional sense. That's the monetary side.

Then there's this other side, which has to do with discoverability, in other words having content forced in front of the eyeballs of Canadians because the government, through the CRTC, the commissioner, feels that it needs to be made apparent to them. This will have a huge impact on digital first creators, no doubt. You've already talked a little bit about the impact this discoverability clause will have in bumping some content up in the queue and some down, making some successful and some not, choosing some to win and some to lose.

Mr. Benzie, my question for you is this. In your estimation then, when you listen to the minister say, no, that user-generated content is not captured, and you listen to Mr. Scott, the chair of the CRTC, say, yes, in fact user-generated content is captured, what impact does that have on you, and what position do you take on behalf of the creators you represent?

[Scott Benzie]

It's a really interesting position to be in, to be honest, where there are two diametrically opposed positions of exactly what's in the bill and what's not in the bill. It's kind of difficult. By the letter of the legislation, UGC is in the bill. We haven't seen the policy directive. We don't know what the policy directive's going to say, and policy directives can change with another government and another heritage minister, whenever. It really leaves us in an uncomfortable position of uncertainty around our work and our line of business, and I don't think that's fair. All we've been asking for is to be written into the legislation to reflect what the minister is saying, and I don't think that should be a difficult lift. Honestly, I cannot tell why those clauses are still in there. They benefit nobody.

I would like to say, in my time, in the spirit of co-operation, that I agree with everything Margaret McGuffin is saying. I think the platform should support all of these education programs and we should be putting in accelerators. We should be lighting a fire, pouring gasoline on the fire, as opposed to dampening it, but you don't need discovery for any of that. That doesn't make any sense to me.

That's a long way of answering your question.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Benzie.

I'm just going to go in a slightly different direction. You made a comment before with regard to digital first creators. You said one of the things that contributes to their great success is the fact that they don't have to deal with gatekeepers. Tell me a little bit more about that. What does that mean?

[Scott Benzie]

The platforms are free and open to use, so they're restricted by nobody. Everybody has an opportunity to upload their content and to find their audience. It's niche content distributed globally. That niche normally exists around the world. It's a wonderful opportunity for anybody to get their content made. We've heard from creators that have been rejected by gatekeepers. There are four broadcasters here in this country—that's four people sitting at desks in Toronto—and if you can't get through them, you can't get your content made.

The removal of gatekeepers has been the greatest piece of Canadian cultural renaissance in history. Tesher is a Punjabi singer from Saskatoon. In what universe does that happen without the platforms? It just speaks to their power, and we should be embracing that and supporting and raising other creators up to those levels. We can do it with the right programs.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Mr. Benzie, how does this bill distort that then? Would they still have access to these platforms without the traditional gatekeepers, or would that be distorted?

[Scott Benzie]

No. They would still have access, but now the government would be mandating which content is being put to the top of the system. It's simple math. If you have 10 total spots that you can get as a creator, and now three or four of them are being set aside for approved CanCon, you now, as a creator, only have six or seven spots left. It becomes math at that point. That's not to say.... Officially promoting content into algorithms is a disastrous idea anyway. It's not going to help any content get discovered globally; it's going to hurt it.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I want to tap into that just a little bit more here, because what you're saying, basically, is that, if we put walls around Canadian producers, content creators, in order to “protect” them, we will also harm them. What do you mean?

[Scott Benzie]

You will only harm them. You won't protect them. There is no positive scenario for artificially manipulating the algorithms. The algorithm will punish that content if it is not engaged with, if it is not watched, if it is not liked, etc.

We can't create a culture of gated content on free-to-use platforms. It's meant for global discovery. Targeting that content locally is.... I can't express how bad an idea that is.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Essentially, what you're saying is that it's going to harness them. It's going to prevent them from being able to go the distance that they could on their own.

[Scott Benzie]

One hundred per cent—we will see fewer success stories globally from Canada if this legislation's passed and discoverability is messed with, for sure.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Great.

Mr. Benzie, in the time that I have remaining, I'm wondering if you could leave us with an explanation of the ways that this legislation could be fixed so that it adequately—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, Ms. Thomas. You have no time remaining.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

With all due respect, Chair....

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Yes. With due respect, on my stopwatch, you have no time remaining. I'm sorry. You have five minutes, not six. Thank you very much.

We now have Mr. Coteau for the Liberals. You have five minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you so much, Chair.

I have a couple of questions for Mr. Benzie.

Before I start, I want you to know that, when we talk about the algorithms, I agree that we shouldn't regulate them, but I have some questions about.... You bring up the topic of algorithms a lot. I wanted to find out from you if you know the algorithms for many of these platforms. Have they been revealed to you?

[Scott Benzie]

We are not very good friends with the.... I'm sorry. I heard an echo.

Algorithms are a funny thing. I don't know the algorithm. There are best practices—