Canadian Heritage Committee on May 31st, 2022

[Pierre Trudel]

First of all, it is true that democratic states have been very slow to put in place rules to ensure that activities on the Internet are properly conducted. In this respect, Canada has always been a pioneer. The Broadcasting Act is a pioneering law. The world looks to Canada as an example when it comes to determining what to do to regulate audiovisual systems. In this sense, it is not surprising that no other country has done so before us, since we are pioneers. This seems to me to be an important element.

Moreover, we can see what is happening in Europe. We realize that these platforms operate on a very high scale. What we need to guarantee is the transparency and fairness of the algorithmic and artificial intelligence processes that are behind the operation of these platforms. This is what makes these platforms de facto regulated by the companies.

As I understand it, what is planned in Europe is essentially to force the major platforms to be much more transparent and to be more accountable for what they do by using these various technical processes that ultimately regulate the discourse to which all citizens, like you and me, will have access.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I'm going to ask a very quick question, because time is running out and I have very little time left.

In a recent column published this year, you also talked about online platforms, calling them data vacuums. I recently had discussions with representatives of ADISQ and they told me that it was extremely difficult to have access to the data collected by online companies.

This is a question to which I know the answer, but given the difficulty of obtaining the data, does the CRTC have any means other than access to the algorithms to ensure that the objectives imposed on online platforms are met?

You only have a few seconds left to answer.

[Pierre Trudel]

In my opinion, the way to proceed is to ensure that the data is more accessible to the regulator. The data are produced by Canadians like you and me, not by companies. It's our activities that are being monitored on the Internet, and these companies—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Professor Trudel.

I will go to the NDP and Peter Julian.

You have two and a half minutes, please.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to follow up on Monsieur Trudel's comments about the exclusion about TV. I'll direct my questions to Mr. Palmer, Mr. Denton and Ms. Roy.

We had testimony last week where OUTtv was excluded from a number of streaming platforms, which were basically saying they weren't interested in LGBT content and won't put that content on their platforms. We've had some proponents—people who are opposed to C-11—saying that they don't want gatekeepers for the streaming services, but it seems to me that this is a key example of big companies acting as gatekeepers in an exclusionary and discriminatory way.

I wanted to get comments from each one of you about this exclusion. For OUTtv, the company was basically saying that they're not going to have that content, without explanation. It could be indigenous peoples or it could be racialized people. There is a whole range of content right now that companies basically can choose, as they did with OUTtv, to exclude. There's no regulatory oversight.

Mr. Trudel testified that C-11 has an advantage of bringing to bear some regulatory framework.

I'm going to start with you, Mr. Palmer. How do you feel about that exclusion? Do you feel that companies are acting as gatekeepers? Would you admit that in this case it's very clear that their acting in that way?

[Philip Palmer]

I don't like the use of the word “gatekeeper” as such. The fact is that they own their platforms. They design the materials that they are going to make available to their subscribers or viewers on the basis of how they want to market and to whom they want to market.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Palmer, I'm going to move on to Mr. Denton.

If you're fine with that exclusion, I will move on to Mr. Denton and ask him the same question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 37 seconds, Mr. Denton.

[Timothy Denton]

Mr. Danks is a businessman. He works successfully in a regulated environment. He's just had a taste of the power and ability of people to say no. It's a little shocking to him perhaps—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

You're okay with the exclusion. That's fine. Thank you, Mr. Denton.

I want to get a sense from you—

[Timothy Denton]

It's called capitalism.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That's fair enough, Mr. Denton. I think you've made your point.

I disagree with you profoundly on discrimination and exclusion being something that we should just accept, but you have made your point.

Finally, I'll go to Ms. Roy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Peter.

I now move on to the Conservatives and Mrs. Thomas for five minutes, please.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

My first question will be for Ms. Roy.

Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us again today. I certainly enjoyed hearing your opening statement.

I'm just looking for you to expand on a statement you made during your last visit at this committee. You talked about how you were prevented from succeeding because of gatekeepers that existed within the traditional media world. I'm hoping you can talk a little bit about how you overcame that and achieved success within a new platform.

[Oorbee Roy]

Thanks for the question.

I wanted to start by answering the last question. OUTtv, I believe, is Roku and the problem was with curated content, whereas they could be on TikTok or YouTube because that's user-generated content.

That brings me to my answer, which is that I found a space on user-generated content. Something that's not regulated. I've been on media channels for a couple of decades, but I've not earned any money from it. My story is told to check off some box, but I don't really make anything from it.

This is the first time that I've been able to make a living, and it's through user-generated content. I hope I answered your question.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Ms. Roy, it's been made clear by the chair of the CRTC, Mr. Scott, that user-generated content is in fact in and that it can be regulated. The CRTC does have the power to do so. Now, of course, they're trying to assure us that they are not going to. Nevertheless, the provision is there.

What does that do to you?

[Oorbee Roy]

It's like cutting off my arms and then trying to skateboard. It's just going to make things a little bit harder. Although it is possible, it is just going to make things a little bit harder. Once people try to interfere with me telling my story, I get silenced—and I'm talking based on decades of experience. I know what it looks like to get silenced, and this is what's happening.

You cannot regulate the open Internet. It just seems so shocking to me, and that's what's going to happen.

I don't see many faces on the CRTC who look like mine, so I don't have any faith.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Help me understand that last comment you made, that you don't see many faces that look like you. What do you mean?

[Oorbee Roy]

Here today and also on the CRTC, I look at the people on the panel, and I just don't think that there are a lot of people who look like me, and I just don't think that my views are going to be represented. People can stand here and talk about people of colour, but I'm a person of colour saying I don't feel that regulation is going to work in my favour, and that's based on a lot of experience.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Would you say that there has been opportunity for you as a visible minority to create success for yourself within a digital platform?

[Oorbee Roy]

Yes, that is so exciting. I didn't start thinking that I was going to make a living off this, but platforms like TikTok have been very supportive of me. They've been helping me, and I've never in my life received that kind of help. That is coming from a user-generated content platform, and that's been helping me. It's a recipe for success.

I think I can pull off being an adult skateboarder and make a living off that because of TikTok and user-generated content. How cool is that? It is freaking cool.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I'm super-impressed. I want to be like you when I am 45.

For my next question, I want to ask you about CanCon and discoverability. Under Bill C-11, we know that anything that falls within the definition of CanCon will be bumped up in the queue. In other words, it will be forced in front of the eyeballs of Canadians in order to give it preference, in order to “promote” it. However, it is my understanding that this will have a detrimental impact.

I'm hoping that, as an individual who uses YouTube largely as your platform and TikTok as well, you could comment on what this will do to you.

[Oorbee Roy]

I think it's proposed subsection 9.1(8) that talks about the outcomes. That's the algorithm, really. That video that had 7.2 million views created opportunities for me to get brand deals, so that will basically chop my views by 30%, because those views are going to go to CanCon content and that automatically directly affects my ability to get in front of people.

Somebody saw a video of mine and called me from The Kelly Clarkson Show because they saw my video. That's going to be shut down by 30%, so it directly affects me.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Ms. Roy, thank you so much for being here today. I very much appreciate your testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Now I'm going to Mr. Louis for the Liberals for five minutes, please.