Canadian Heritage Committee on May 31st, 2022

[Kevin Desjardins]

Yes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

If you had your crystal ball and you looked 10 years in the future, if Bill C-11 were not adopted—if we just set it aside—what do you see as the impact of continued unregulated foreign companies basically doing whatever they want in Canada, and that very uneven playing field that so many witnesses have spoken to?

[Kevin Desjardins]

Well, I may well be looking for a job myself if that were the case.

I would certainly see it as having a profound impact on the sector. Especially given the fact that there are rules on Canadian broadcasters, I would think that if you had $100 million to invest in broadcasting, or to invest in anything, why would you invest it in Canadian broadcasting within that context where there was absolute certainty that you were better off to do it with a foreign player, and come in from outside of Canada that way, and not have any rules and be able to, again, operate as you want and not contribute?

I think it would be a profound challenge for our folks just in terms of all of those key pieces—in terms of generating investment, continuing to find audiences, and being able to find the programming rights. It would be a huge challenge.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay, so it really is a matter of putting in place a level playing field.

Mr. Champoux asked you a little bit earlier about the provisions in the bill right now that continue to maintain some unequal approaches. What broadcasters have to do to maintain Canadian employment would be different from this version of the bill, when we talk about foreign online platforms.

Do you not feel that's an important component of proposed paragraph 3(1)(f), namely, that aspect of the bill that basically says that they still don't have to have the same obligations as Canadian broadcasters?

Do you feel, from a creative standpoint, from the standpoint of a level playing field and also maintaining local news sources, that it's important that the level playing field include the obligations around Canadian employment?

[Kevin Desjardins]

I think for us what really stands out in in proposed paragraph 3(1)(f) is that there that there are basically two sets of rules: One is “maximum use” and the other is “greatest practicable use”. For us, that really just stands out.

Ultimately, what we want here is this. Canadian broadcasters are based in their communities and are not going to attempt to not have Canadians working for them. That's not the point of this. The point is to make sure that we have the same rules, and to make sure there is a reason for these foreign broadcasting entities and foreign streamers to work with Canadians. I think that would be a piece where, rather than simply deciding how much they want to spend and how they want to spend it and how they define CanCon and how they define who is Canadian, they would work with the Canadian system.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Again, with the question of a level playing field, as some of our witnesses have suggested, there's the issue of ensuring that the online streamers, even if they don't operate under a licence, are subject to the same provisions of the CRTC around issues like changing ownership and control, for example.

Do you feel that's appropriate as an amendment as well? For the level playing field, what is an obligation for the broadcasting industry also applies to online streaming companies.

[Kevin Desjardins]

Yes. That's a difficult one for me to answer.

I think it does draw out the fact that when you look at the ownership restrictions on Canadian companies, it really brings into stark relief the fact that we might think of some of the companies as large. When you look at the streaming platforms, they have an access to massive amounts of global capital. Certainly, if we don't adjust these rules, they are going to be able to come in and overwhelm the Canadian system with that financial might.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Desjardins.

Now we go to a second round. This is a five-minute round. I begin with the Conservatives and Mr. Waugh.

You have five minutes.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Desjardins, what do you think of Wyatt Sharpe in today's broadcasting?

[Kevin Desjardins]

As someone who was a political nerd right back to my days when I was around his age, I think I have a certain amount of envy and a great deal of respect for what Wyatt has done.

I have been fortunate to be able to catch Wyatt a few times being interviewed by some of our Canadian broadcasters. I know I saw him being interviewed by Sid Seixeiro, which I guess is a great privilege for anyone in Canada at this point.

I had a good laugh when Wyatt talked about his driver's license because as someone with a bachelor of journalism degree who didn't get his driver's license until his 30s, I can tell you, Wyatt, get your driver's license when you're 16 and certainly before you get a bachelor of journalism degree. It will open a world of opportunities for you.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

I'm just going to go through the numbers.

Wyatt, how many followers or subscribers do you have for any of your platforms on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter? Give us some numbers.

[Wyatt Sharpe]

The primary channels I operate on are YouTube and Twitter. YouTube is currently at 3.35 thousand and Twitter is 10,000. I have an Instagram account as well. I believe the figure for that is around 500, but that's more of a personal account.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

It's pretty impressive. It really is.

I'm going to give the rest of my time to Rachael.

I just want to point out one thing on production. Disney spends $4 billion in production in this country. Canadian producers here spend, as you said, $2 billion. The problem is that none of it is in prime time from 7 o'clock to 10 o'clock at night. There's The Big Bang Theory and then I look at Global and there's SNL, NCIS, The Late Show, The Young and the Restless and Survivor. None of it is Canadian talent.

I used to work at Bell. They always went to L.A. and spent millions of dollars on American an program, came back and had a big celebration. Not once, from 7 o'clock to 10 o'clock did we have Canadian programming. That is still the problem today in this country. When you look at the reruns that Bell and Global have, every night it's Big Bang—three and four times on prime time when people are home and who may watch TV.

We will get you later. I'm going to give it to Rachael now because I'm running out of time.

[Kevin Desjardins]

If I can just respond to that, there are certainly.... There is Transplant, which is a very popular prime time show. I think it is the most popular Canadian show at the moment. Canada's Got Talent has been playing in prime time throughout this year. The Curse of Oak Island is certainly one.

There are always shows that are playing in prime time. I will follow up and I will send you a list of them. Certainly, there are—

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

There are a handful.

Anyway, I have to give it to Rachael.

Go ahead.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Kevin.

I am bringing a motion forward to the floor. I'm moving that during this time.

The motion reads as follows, and I'm happy to provide this in both French and English today:

Given that the Chair of the CRTC, Ian Scott, testified at this Committee on May 24, 2022 that Bill C-11 as currently drafted allows for the regulation of user content; and given that the Bill C-11 Charter Statement tabled in the House of Commons on April 1, 2022 states online user content would not be subject to broadcasting regulations under Bill C-11 as currently drafted;

The Committee:

1) Ask the Minister of Justice to provide a revised Charter Statement on Bill C-11 as soon as possible.

2) Invite the Minister of Justice and the Minister of Canadian Heritage accompanied by relevant department officials to appear before the committee as soon as possible to discuss the revised Charter Statement.

Chair, I would be happy to pass this motion out so that my colleagues can read it for themselves, but I do not cede the floor. I have further comments to make.

Would you like me to hand out the motion at this time, or should I just continue to talk?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You may finish the five-minute time slot for the Conservatives in this round. I think you have about 35 seconds left.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Madam Chair, I would perhaps encourage you to consult with the clerk as to how to handle a motion once it's been moved.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You could stop speaking, but right now we are listening to witnesses.

Clerk, would you like to talk about how we deal with this motion?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Aimée Belmore]

Madam Chair, can we suspend for a moment so I can see the text of the motion, please? I haven't seen the text.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I think the text is referring to Bill C-11, so it's on topic.

We would like to know if this motion should be debated and dealt with now or we should continue with the witnesses who are waiting here and came specifically to speak to this issue.

[The Clerk]

Madam Chair, I would really appreciate if we suspended for a moment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

All right then, let's suspend, please.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I hope, by now, that all members of the committee have the motion. I have it, and I rule that this motion is admissible.

Therefore, Mrs. Thomas, would you like to speak to the motion now?

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

I would, Madam Chair. Thank you.