Canadian Heritage Committee on May 31st, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Hello, everyone.

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 28 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

I would like to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Thursday, May 12, 2022, this committee is meeting on the study of Bill C-11, an act to amend the Broadcasting Act and to make related and consequential amendments to other acts.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, and, actually, members attending in the room must wear masks, according to the House of Commons Board of Internal Economy orders of March 10, 2022.

Those on Zoom, please note that at the bottom of your screen there is a globe icon for interpretation. You may choose what interpretation you're going to need. For those on the floor, you know that you can actually plug in and receive interpretation from the room itself. No photographs are meant to be taken during this meeting.

I would like to make comments for the benefit of witnesses and members. Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to speak, and then mute yourself after you finish speaking. For those on Zoom, you have the choice at the bottom of your screen, again, for interpretation. In order to speak, you can mute or unmute yourself as needed.

Today, for our first hour of the meeting, we have one organization, and it is the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission. Present for this group will be Ian Scott, chairperson and chief executive director; Scott Hutton, chief of consumer, research and communications; Sheehan Carter, director general, strategic policy; and Rachelle Frenette, general counsel, deputy executive director.

As the CRTC is very well aware, because they've been here before, the actual commission will have five minutes to present and then there will be questions and answers from the floor, during which you may be able to elaborate or answer any questions that are asked of you in a segment beginning with six minutes.

Right now, Mr. Scott, you may begin for five minutes.

[Ian Scott, Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, members of the committee.

I'll forgo the introductions. You've identified my colleagues. We are pleased to appear before the committee, specifically this time to speak about the need for Bill C-11.

The modernization of Canada's Broadcasting Act is long overdue. Created in the early 1990s, the act was a product of its time. It fostered the creation of a series of tools that were appropriate for the public-policy goals of the day, namely to protect and encourage the development of Canada's broadcasting system. In the walled garden this system created, Canadian films, music and television programs were given the opportunity to flourish.

I don't have to tell you how that reality has changed with the Internet. Those goals supported by the Broadcasting Act and the tools it created became less relevant as Internet technology embedded itself deeper into the homes, and onto the phones of Canadians.

As regulators of the broadcasting system, we paid close attention to these changes. We judged these changes were complementary—rather than detrimental—to Canada's broadcasting system, while we continued to keep a closer eye on the trends and innovations those technologies created.

Each passing year brought new changes to the system, giving Canadians a welcome ability to consume new content in new ways. Digital platforms have created and continue to create opportunities for Canadian artists and content producers but also challenges, particularly for traditional media.

In 2018, at the request of government, we conducted an in-depth study of the environment and issued our report called “Harnessing Change”. In it, we lay bare a simple truth: Canadians will rely increasingly on the Internet to discover and consume music, entertainment, news and other information in the coming years.

Our report therefore recommended that future policy approaches should focus on the production and promotion of high-quality content made by Canadians that can be discovered by audiences in Canada and abroad, should ensure that all players benefiting from the Canadian broadcasting system participate in an appropriate and equitable manner and should be sufficiently nimble to enable the regulator to adapt rapidly to changes in technology and consumer demand. We made similar recommendations to the broadcasting and telecommunications legislative review panel.

All of this brings us to Bill C-11, which the CRTC views as a much-needed piece of legislation. More effective tools, such as those proposed in C-11, are needed to ensure that Canadian stories and music can be enjoyed by audiences in Canada and across the globe. In our view, the bill proposes three very important things.

First, C‑11 builds on the existing Broadcasting Act to clarify the CRTC's jurisdiction regarding online broadcasters. It would give the CRTC new regulatory powers to deal with online broadcasting services, including non‑Canadian ones.

Second, it would give us a more flexible approach to regulation. The current Broadcasting Act does not specify how traditional players in the Canadian broadcasting system must contribute to the act's policy objectives. Bill C‑11 would allow us to make that determination as it regards online broadcasters and put in place the regulatory frameworks to support those goals.

Finally, it would modernize the CRTC's enforcement powers. Although the Telecommunications Act allows us to impose administrative monetary penalties to address non‑compliance, no such provisions exist in the Broadcasting Act.

Madam Chair, the need for modernization of the Broadcasting Act has only become more urgent.

I will stop there and invite questions from the members.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Scott.

I will now go to the first round. It will be for six minutes for the Conservatives. I do not have the name of the Conservative member who will be opening this.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Madam Chair, it's John Nater here.

It's going to be Mr. Waugh for the first round.

Before we go to his questions, could I just seek some clarity? The notice of meeting says that this part of the meeting will end at 7:30. I'm just seeking clarity from the chair in terms of how long this portion with the CRTC will go for.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I was told that this was a two-hour meeting. With my math, shaky as it is, I would think if we began at 7:05 we will end at 9:05.

I will seek clarification from the clerk on that.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

On a point of order, Madam Chair.

I was just going to ask the clerk about that, Madam Chair.

According to the information I received, we were supposed to let staff leave the meeting at 8:30 p.m. at the latest.

Is that accurate?

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Aimée Belmore]

Thank you.

We've been told not to change the hours on notice for the services, so we keep it as 6:30 to 8:30 but we have a full two hours from the time that we start.

Given that we started at the time the chair has said, we have two hours from that time for the meeting. My understanding was an hour for the first panel and 45 minutes for the second panel, but I will seek clarification from the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Madam Clerk.

I think we're very clear. I would like to know the exact time of starting. I thought that it was 7:05, but I may be wrong.

[The Clerk]

The time that I had was 7:12, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you. Then we will have two hours from 7:12.

Continue, Mr. Nater.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Actually, it's Mr. Waugh.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm sorry, Kevin.

Go ahead for six minutes.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Welcome again. It seems like just an hour ago we saw you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Just yesterday....

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Mr. Scott, I think we all agree that the Broadcasting Act needs modernization. I think everybody does. We've talked for 20 hours here this week, and there isn't anyone who disagrees that it does need to be modernized.

There are differing views. Your thoughts on the differing views that you've heard from people in the business, the regular—if you don't mind me saying—broadcast industry and from those that are the new ones that are coming on streaming, YouTube, etc., and they're making a living on that.... There seems to be a clash where the old broadcasters have had their way and now we have the new generation—if you don't mind me saying—and they're streaming.

I just want you to clarify this in your mind, the CRTC's mind, because, let's face it, for 53 years you actually dealt with just the broadcasting. Now you're being asked to deal with the streaming, although I think you should have also been looking after the streaming, which you decided not to do. Am I correct on that?

[Ian Scott]

On the last point, the commission looked at it at various times in the past, the last time in detail almost a decade ago, and at that time the impact of broadcasting being delivered by the Internet did not have as significant an impact on the broadcasting system as it clearly does today.

It's an interesting question you pose. I suppose the simple answer is that regulation is not always welcome by parties. There are groups today that are subject to regulation and have obligations, if you will. They operated in a walled garden in the past and the walls have disappeared.

The new players have entered. They were not subject to similar regulatory obligations and what is on the table now is that we should find a regulatory framework that treats all of those who are engaged in broadcasting...be subject to an equitable broadcasting regime that is fair to all.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

What you're saying, then, is that you consider YouTube to be a broadcaster?

[Ian Scott]

It depends what YouTube is doing. If they're engaged in broadcasting, then we will be interested. If they're engaged in other activities, no, then not. We're concerned with broadcasting.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Define “broadcasting”.

[Ian Scott]

It's a discussion.... I mean, I can go.... One of your members...we had this discussion very briefly and I didn't get a chance to answer.

As I started to say last time, it is defined in the act specifically. If you wish me to read the definition, it is “transmission of programs”, regardless of whether the transmission is scheduled or on demand and whether the programs are encrypted or not, “by radio waves or other means of telecommunication for reception by the public by means of broadcasting receiving apparatus, but does not include any such transmission of programs that is made solely for performance or display in a public place”.

That is held over from the current Broadcasting Act.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Did anyone from the public office reach out to you or anybody on the table there within the last two weeks about this bill, Bill C-11?

[Ian Scott]

I'm sorry. I didn't hear the question clearly.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

From the minister's office...?

[Ian Scott]

No. I have not spoken to anyone from the minister's office.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Okay. From the meeting of May 24...?