Canadian Heritage Committee on June 1st, 2022

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

J.J., what you're talking about is the desire under Bill C-11 that the government has to protect Canadian culture. Ultimately what it means is that CanCon, anything that fits that definition, which is an antiquated definition to begin with, will be bumped up in the queue in terms of discoverability online, and other material that doesn't meet that antiquated definition will actually get bumped down, maybe even be on page 553 of the Internet, where it will never be discovered in its lifetime.

What impact will this have on digital first creators?

[J.J. McCullough]

This is a very important point.

In the YouTube world, we have a term where we talk about getting buried. YouTube has its own algorithm, which is controversial in its own terms, as in what makes a YouTube video easy to discover or not easy to discover. YouTube has its own sort of system of that. If government gets involved, if the CRTC gets involved and comes up with its own sort of metrics, then you have this whole new stress to worry about. Is your video not only getting suppressed by YouTube's algorithm, but now by some sort of new content regime that the CRTC has imposed on YouTube? Is your video getting suppressed even though it's made by a Canadian, because it's not Canadian enough by whatever the CRTC's definition of “Canadian enough” is.

As I said in my opening statement, the CRTC makes—and I'm sure the other witnesses are well aware—you jump through all sorts of hoops in order to obtain what is literally called “Canadian certification”, having to affirm that there were enough Canadian actors, enough Canadian music, that it was made in Canada, etc., as well as content stuff.

These are all of the hoops that you have to jump through. A lot of Canadians are going to be oblivious to all of these hoops. A lot of Canadian YouTubers are even oblivious to this discussion that's happening. I worry very much that a lot of YouTubers are going to wake up one day and they're suddenly going to see their content suppressed. Suddenly, they're not going to be making as much money and not getting enough views because government has intervened.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much.

Now I go to a round with the Liberals and Anthony Housefather.

Anthony, you have five minutes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

I want to thank each and every one of the witnesses.

Reynolds, I want to thank you for reminding us that traditional Canadian broadcasting is also being seen outside of Canada. I know when we were kids it was Degrassi. Today it's Schitt's Creek. It's hardly YouTubers who have been the first to ever export their content out of Canada.

We haven't talked about this a lot today, but I also want to say that we're coming at this bill from a cultural point of view. It's also the protection of French original content in Canada. We do have a French-speaking minority in this country that we need to protect and promote.

I say this, by the way, Mr. McCullough, not to come at you unfairly. I am a proud Canadian who lives in Quebec, is a Quebecker, is against Bill 96 and Bill 21, and has spoken out against those things. I also believe you have a right to be a French-speaking Canadian and live anywhere in this country and be comfortable, or be an English-speaking Canadian and live in Quebec and be comfortable.

That's why I want to ask you about a couple of things that you've said about bilingualism. I found an article where you called French “an exotic dying language utterly irrelevant to” the ordinary lives of most Canadians.

[J.J. McCullough]

Do you think that's not true?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I have also found the article you wrote that says that bilingualism is a threat to Canadian democracy.

Part of Bill C-11, as a national government, is protecting the French fact across Canada. I am asking this question to you in English and not in French because I am not trying to score political points on it.

Can you tell me why you believe that bilingualism is a threat to Canadian democracy and whether or not you believe the federal government should have a role to play in protecting French culture across Canada?

[J.J. McCullough]

Madam Chair, I do not believe that this is the topic of this committee's discussion. We are not here to help—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Excuse me. I'm sorry, sir, but the committee knows exactly what its topic is. It's Bill C-11.

Thank you. Please answer the question.

[J.J. McCullough]

I don't really feel like it's appropriate, Madam Chair, to have a conversation about my views on bilingualism. That does not strike me as the topic of conversation this afternoon.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You do not make those decisions, sir.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Madam Chair, it's okay. I appreciate your jumping in.

Mr. McCullough, I do believe this bill is about bilingualism. I believe this bill is about ensuring that English-language minority content in Quebec and French-language minority content in the rest of the country is treated with respect and that we give the opportunity for people in both languages to express themselves across this country and develop their own original programs.

In the last Parliament, Mr. McCullough, this committee adopted many amendments to this bill that dealt with this very issue. We've had many witnesses come to talk to us about how important this is.

My question again to you, sir, about this bill is this. Do you believe that it is fair in Bill C-11—an important part of Bill C-11—that the federal government is protecting French content and French original creation of content across Canada in all forms?

[J.J. McCullough]

I do not believe that it is the role of the government to impress French content upon Canadians if they don't want it. If Canadians want to watch, say, French YouTube videos, there is nothing to prevent them from discovering those videos and watching them. I do not believe it is appropriate for the government to pass laws, regulations or mandates that would force YouTube to impose French content on YouTube users who don't want to watch that. To me, that seems just preposterous.

I think this should be ultimately a consumer-driven phenomenon. What consumers want to consume is what they should be free to consume. I don't think it's the role of government to tell them to watch more French videos or tell them to watch more videos on X, Y or Z. I don't think it has anything to do with French. It has everything to do with consumer demand.

That's my perspective because I believe in a free market and I believe in a free market approach to culture. I don't believe in the idea of a government-knows-best approach to culture in which politicians, bureaucrats or whoever get together and say, “Do you know what Canadians need to watch more of? It's this, that and that, and we should use the strength and the power of government to force this into their YouTube feeds, their subscription feeds, onto their airwaves or onto the radio” or whatever. That's my opinion.

I know that's perhaps not your opinion, but that's what I believe. I believe in the freedom of consumer choice. I believe that content should sink or swim based on its popularity.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I am giving you the opportunity to express those views here at this committee. All Canadians can hear exactly what you think about that, which is important. It wouldn't have happened in Viktor Orbán's Hungary, probably. It wouldn't have happened in a lot of the totalitarian regimes of different countries you've compared...as you've been talking about this bill.

In terms of your comparison that Mrs. Thomas just asked you about and you brought up Hungary—you've also compared it to China and Russia—why do you believe that this bill is about ideologically motivated censorship and thought control? That's essentially what you're saying.

[J.J. McCullough]

No, I'm not saying thought control, but don't you think that there are some analogies here? If the Chinese established a bill like this and said, “We're doing this to protect our cultural sovereignty from the evil foreigners and their bad, foreign ideas that will corrupt our culture”, wouldn't you find that problematic?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I think we're reading a different bill.

Madam Chair, how much time do I have left?

[J.J. McCullough]

No. Don't you agree on the same grounds? Don't you think that there's something—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Give me a second, please.

[J.J. McCullough]

I'm sorry...?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I was asked a question. I need to answer.

How much time do you have left, Mr. Housefather? You have a minute.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I have a minute. Okay.

Again, I don't think I'm reading the same bill.

[J.J. McCullough]

I'm asking, don't you think there's something problematic about a government that says we need to protect our cultural sovereignty? What would you think if the Chinese said that? Wouldn't you find that problematic?

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I would think that the Chinese wanted to protect Chinese cultural sovereignty, but would do so in a very different way from Canada. In China, you have a government that tells people what they need to think and what they need to say, and if they don't say it properly, they can be thrown in prison and they could suffer terrible consequences. That doesn't happen in Canada.

[J.J. McCullough]

What are the consequences if—

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

It's my time.

I'm trying to answer your question, Mr. McCullough.

[J.J. McCullough]

Yes.