Canadian Heritage Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2022

[Scott Ford]

When we started bidding for the Canadian curling trials, we were anticipating crowds to be over 8,000 fans per draw. Curling in Saskatchewan is a hot ticket. Actually, curling in western Canada is a hot ticket. Past Briers have achieved those numbers quite easily. The Canadian curling trials are Curling Canada's number one curling product. Certainly, it's one that they anticipate. Those associations, like the Junos, need these major events so they can fill their coffers and continue to operate with their programming. The Junos and Curling Canada need these events to be successful. They need the ticket revenue and the money.

We were operating at under 3,000 fans per draw. We were happy to have the event, but again, everything is underperforming. It's affecting not only our national sporting associations. We could talk about the World Junior Championship in hockey. They've attempted twice now to run in Edmonton and they haven't been able to get off the ground. All of the work and the money that went into producing those events.... Those events were either cancelled or done without fans. It's tough for the industry. It's tough for the associations that run these events. It's tough for our promoters and our tenants.

The Saskatchewan Rush of the National Lacrosse League in Saskatoon have the number one attendance in the league. We were drawing over 13,000 fans a game. Now we're open for business and we're drawing 6,000 fans a game. The Saskatoon Blades used to be at 4,500. We're now drawing 2,500. Everything is down.

I really think there needs to be a national strategy to improve consumer confidence. What has been the message out there? The message, consistently, has been to stay away from crowds, to work from home and various things.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 15 seconds, Mr. Ford.

[Scott Ford]

In terms of messaging, there needs to be a national strategy to improve consumer confidence. I think there needs to be some continuity on what we can do moving forward with regard to touring shows and the major producers that produce these events.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Kevin and Mr. Ford.

We'll go now to the second question, which comes from Michael Coteau of the Liberal Party.

Michael, you have five minutes.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate the opportunity.

Before I specifically ask a question, I want to say to the cultural, heritage and sports sectors, to all the sectors here today, thank you for what you've been doing. I know the culture and sports sectors have been among the hardest hit because of COVID.

For example, I got to spend a lot of time with the culture sector here in the province of Ontario, and the sports and athleticism sector. We know these are major contributors to our economy. Therefore, thank you to everyone who is participating today and for helping to build such a great country.

We know that coming out of this pandemic we're going to need things to pull us together as Canadians even more than ever. We know that people are going through a lot of challenges. Culture, heritage and sports will really contribute to lifting us up and getting us back on track.

I have a question for Ms. Hall from the Nia Centre.

Congratulations on the 17,000 square foot space that you are championing as an organization. It's much needed.

As we talk about many of the issues of filling existing spaces and keeping existing clientele, I know it has been a challenge here in Toronto within the Black community just to find space to use.

Different communities have been impacted differently. You mentioned in your deposition that you've been building as the pandemic moves forward, but I'm sure you've been collaborating too and working with other groups in the city, in the GTA and the province and across the country that might be considered the non-traditional groups.

I was hoping you could weigh in on how you think other groups that share a similar background to yours are doing. What are some of the other challenges they might be going through as non-traditional culture groups here in Ontario and across the country?

[Alica Hall]

I think there is a challenge for a number of Black arts organizations, who are obviously also being called on in this moment as we explore our history and the racial reckoning that's going on, to be able to participate in those conversations and to lead those discussions on how we create a more diverse and inclusive recovery.

There's not as much in terms of resources to be able to do that. Folks are calling on them to source artists, to provide feedback, to develop equity frameworks, to provide feedback on upcoming seasons and such. There is an increased role and amplification of the work they want to do and the work they do in the sector but just not enough resources to be able to actually play those roles effectively.

Space continues to be an issue. Of course, you know, we've seen the housing market across the country, and particularly in Ontario. The rising cost of housing puts pressure on other kinds of infrastructure. The cost to rent space in the downtown core versus where we are uptown is different, so we want to create affordable spaces for smaller community groups to be able to put on plays and use our space for exhibitions when we can gather again.

Space, even in the pandemic, in the small windows we have to gather, whether it's for the festivals or cultural events, is hard to find and quite pricey due to some of the pressures we're facing in Toronto.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I want to ask an additional question.

From what you have seen with different funding models, at the federal, provincial and municipal levels and different councils that provide funding, what can we do differently? How can we tweak current grants or assistance to better serve the Black community or any of the communities that might not fit into the traditional model or relationships that exist between funders and organizations?

[Alica Hall]

That's a great question and it's one that I feel well positioned to answer, because I started off my career at the youth challenge fund, which was a fund set up by the provincial government at the time under the leadership of Kathleen Wynne to invest in, specifically, Black youth in the inner suburbs. I saw first-hand what it looked like to partner with community organizations and Black youth working together to develop initiatives, as well as capital, for safe spaces for youth to gather.

We've seen that model replicated with work that you did around designing the Ontario bBk youth action plan at the provincial level. We haven't yet seen that kind of targeted approach taken by the federal government to work with an independent foundation or body to invest in a Black foundation. I know that's within the existing federal budget. I applaud the work of that motion and I'm really eager to see it come to life. The foundation can do the work to partner with community-led organizations on the ground.

I think other folks on the call have spoken about this. With some of the programs and investments, folks are just not aware of them or don't have sufficient time to be able to create applications and get approved by the Canada Council. You have to, 30 days in advance, be approved and create an application before you can even apply for additional funding.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Do we have one more minute or are we done?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

No, that's your time. Thank you.

Sorry about that, Michael.

Mr. Champoux, you're now up for two and a half minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to come back to Mr. Roy of the RÉMI and what we discussed earlier.

During each wave of the pandemic, we have regularly had the opportunity to discuss things with the various stakeholders in the arts sector, particularly with those from Quebec but also people from across Canada. I see that a number of programs have been created, but let's focus on those that concern you more, Mr. Roy. Earlier you mentioned the major festival and event support initiative. We also talked about the reopening fund and the recovery fund for arts, to name only a few.

In your opinion, are there too many programs? Are they too targeted, and does that make it harder for them to adapt to the pandemic's shifting realities?

[Martin Roy]

It's a complex issue.

As far as we're concerned, we have been well served by the fact that there are horizontal programs, that is to say programs that apply to everyone, and sectoral programs. Thanks to all of these programs, we've been able to navigate and survive so far.

The problem is that sectoral programs pose a certain number of challenges on the ground—more so than cross‑cutting programs—because they are not always adapted.

In the case of the major festivals and events support initiative, major festivals are being asked to invest in product development. It is a very commendable effort. However, it isn't logical to ask someone to expand their home when they are having trouble paying the hydro bill. That's sort of what's happening with the initiative.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Do you think the programs are well designed? Is Canadian Heritage the best agency or department to manage the programs? Do you think the department has enough flexibility?

[Martin Roy]

As I was saying earlier, we don't understand why all the festivals are de facto under the responsibility of Canadian Heritage when the tourism and economic impact of some of them should be recognized. Not all festivals are cultural, but all festivals are economic and tourism drivers. That's why we believe there should be complementary intervention by economic departments and regional economic development agencies.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Monsieur Roy.

I'll go to Peter Julian from the NDP for two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'd also like to come back to Mr. Roy.

Mr. Roy, your testimony was very powerful. Last year, a $25 million development fund was approved. One year later, the money hasn't yet been distributed.

What are the consequences of the government’s inaction? It announced something, but so far nothing has been given to the major events sector. Are there any events that won't be able to survive? Are there employees who have withdrawn from the industry? What are the consequences of the one‑year delay, which I think is unacceptable?

[Martin Roy]

It's the total lack of predictability. We're already in the dark enough, in a vacuum, and we're still struggling with all these issues.

The budget was presented in April. As for the major festivals and events support initiative, as I said, the applications started to be submitted in November. It took over six months to set up. It wasn't until June that the Department of Canadian Heritage gave details of the announcement that had been made in April.

At that time, the reopening and stimulus funds were announced. The stimulus fund has been rolled out, but we are still waiting for the reopening fund. The problem is very complex. I must tell you that there is still a lot of confusion on the ground. People don't know where to turn. In the case of the reopening fund, for example, we will have to submit projects in order to get money. However, we still have to design these projects. For the time being, no details have been provided on the subject. There is $25 million, but who knows when we will have access to it.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Does that mean that major events won't be able to take place, that they'll be cancelled since the delays will have been too long? Is that the result or consequence of that?

[Martin Roy]

This would be the result of the work of the different branches of public health.

As far as we're concerned, these are not optimal investments. If the cheques come in after the events, that's not a good thing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Roy. You are doing very well with your times here.

Now we're going to a third round. It's a five-minute round for Leslyn Lewis from the Conservatives.

Ms. Lewis.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Witnesses, I want to thank all of you for the opportunity you've given us just to learn about your specific needs and those of your industry, and to better understand some of the challenges that you faced over the past two years.

My question is to expand on Ms. Hall's answer. I'm curious to find out if she was able to offset some of her economic strains by bringing some programs online.

[Alica Hall]

Thank you for that question, MP Lewis.

I would say while operating during the pandemic we've continued to bring young people who are interested in careers in the arts to both workshops and programs online. We have offered new mental health programs for artists who are experiencing challenges. Through some of the emergency recovery funding we have been able to offer them low-cost access to therapy, given some of the challenges and pressures they were facing.

We continue to work with other organizations to partner and use their space. That has reduced the cost of operating while we are under construction.

Construction costs, on the other hand, have increased due to the pandemic—things like steel, things like having fewer workers onsite, which has extended the period of construction through the pandemic. There has been a real increase in our overarching capital costs. Some of those cost savings have just been moved over to ensure that we can open the space in the fall of this year.

Really, I think our concern isn't necessarily operating during this time, but when doors open in the fall, we will have increased operating costs due to the need for tech directors and other back-of-house roles.

Those are some of the challenges we're looking to close and encourage folks to think about as we reposition and rethink about recovery and start to live in this new normal.

[Leslyn Lewis, Conservative, Haldimand—Norfolk, ON]

I'm assuming that the demographics that you serve and the individuals, the performers, etc., would be more overrepresentative from a racialized group. Is that a correct assessment?

[Alica Hall]

That is correct. I would say 85% of our performers and participants are Black Canadians, but we also have representation from a wide variety of other racialized communities who participate in our programs and come to learn about Black artistic traditions.