Evidence of meeting #43 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was journalism.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Mr. Skok, congratulations on your extraordinary work. It's very exciting.
Are there any improvements you can see that we could make to the bill? Is there anything that you would suggest in terms of amendments?
2:40 p.m.
Founder and Chief Executive Officer, The Logic Inc.
Yes. Thank you, Mr. Julian.
You were asking before about how the smaller publishers do relative to the larger ones. I think the proportionality question is a big one for us that is concerning. One way to reconcile that, which we have proposed and submitted to you all, is regarding clause 86 of the bill, with the annual report of the independent auditor. We would propose that the items outlined in subclause 86(2) related to the impact of these agreements be shared in real time with the arbitrators as these deals occur, as opposed to after a year. That way, as one deal happens, all the others are proportionally adjudicated in a similar fashion—as opposed to now, when you could have one to three years of deals done that are completely different in terms of size and scale and scope.
2:40 p.m.
NDP
Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC
Thanks very much.
Thanks to our witnesses.
Thanks to Mr. Housefather and Mr. Champoux for having offered their additional time.
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you very much, Peter.
I now go to the Conservatives, for five minutes.
Kevin, go ahead.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Welcome, all.
One of the things I've witnessed is that CBC is pilfering talent from the newspapers across this country, and that's going to continue with this bill. I'm going to tell you that right now. CBC develops little or no talent on its own, because it just pilfers from mid-to-lower newspapers in this country, and that isn't an issue this bill is going to deal with.
I'm going to start with News Media.
Mr. Deegan, I know my statement is correct. I've seen it. It's going to continue. With this bill going through, it will continue even more. We are going to get reporters with little or no experience put in rural Canada because there are no reporters. What are your thoughts on this?
2:40 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, News Media Canada
Listen, I agree with you. It's a huge problem with the CBC in terms of pilfering talent. Local papers develop talent. Given your own background, you know this first-hand. Then they take them. They are making far more money with the CBC. It's a big issue.
That's why it's important that we have this legislation. It will get us on a more firm commercial footing. The one thing that I would ask you as members of the committee to look at—I know it was in the Liberal platform last summer during the election campaign—is to cut off advertising for CBC during their news and current affairs programs. We're competing with them head to head. They already have a $1.4-billion leg-up on us and we're competing with them for advertising. That's not fair. That's not right.
Don't get me wrong. There's a place for the public broadcaster in Canada. They do exceptional work. But they shouldn't be competing with private enterprises for commercial advertising.
2:40 p.m.
Conservative
Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK
I couldn't agree with you more. They're competing with everybody, and they win because they're the CBC and The National.
The other question I have, Mr. Geist, is simply this: Can you or somebody else tell me...? The Moosomin World-Spectator was told that this was going to be worth a lot of money to local independent owners. What can the owner of the Moosomin World-Spectator expect from this deal? Is it $5,000 a year? Is it $10,000 a year? Is it $100,000 a year? If he has two employees in the newsroom, he's eligible.
I have not heard a figure that I can take back to an independent owner in this country to say that it's good: “Sure it's good: I'm getting $5,000 extra.” I need the figure, the exact figure that will be negotiated for the lower and medium newspapers. Can someone on this panel tell me what they can expect? I've heard outrageous numbers. I need to know exactly the number that they can expect.
Does anybody on this panel want to take a shot at that?
Go ahead, Mr. Geist.
2:45 p.m.
Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I'll start.
I don't think anybody can give you an exact number, because I don't think anybody knows at this stage. We certainly don't know what people are getting in Australia either. Mr. Sims might, but the public generally doesn't know any of this kind of information. There's a great deal of secrecy associated with that system, at least in terms of what is available publicly.
We don't know that, but here are the two things we do know. One, we know that these businesses will effectively be forced to participate in this. Why? As you mentioned, their competitors, like the CBC and others, are in, so you can't compete effectively. There are dozens of smaller independent media organizations, if not hundreds, oftentimes digital-first, in local communities. Oftentimes they are thriving, and they're going to struggle to not participate, because they're competing against those that are taking the cash.
Let me also very quickly—and I see Ms. Gerson has a comment—note for Mr. Deegan that if he would continue with paragraph 27(1)(a), it does mention QCJOs, but then there's an important word: “or”. The “or” gives you paragraph 27(1)(b), which sets a low standard for accessibility to this program, in which there are simply no standards.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Mr. Geist, I might point out that Kevin has the opportunity to ask Ms. Gerson to respond.
2:45 p.m.
Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
2:45 p.m.
Co-founder of The Line and Independent Journalist, As an Individual
Professor, I would just point out that under the qualified journalism program, organizations like mine don't qualify, because, of course, we're “owner-owned”. We are owned by two people, and we produce our own content. Because we are the only two journalists working for our organization and we own the organization, we don't qualify for this.
This is one of those issues or one of those problems that stifle innovation, because it means that a lot of the start-ups that are created by the journalists themselves won't qualify until they reach a certain mass, which makes it harder and harder to compete. Now, that's something that could be addressed—
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you, Ms. Gerson. I'm sorry. The time is up.
I'm now going to move to the Liberals and Tim Louis.
You have five minutes, Tim.
September 23rd, 2022 / 2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair. I appreciate this.
Thank you, everyone, for being here. I appreciate this. I would like to start my questions with Dr. Sims.
In my riding, Dr. Sims, we have a number of small, independent weekly news outlets. Some of them are as small as two journalists and an editor. We know that strong independent news is always important, and it was even more important throughout the pandemic.
You've heard a number of people asking the same questions that we're hearing on the ground. The concern from these small news outlets is that they want to be reassured that they're going to be part of the collective negotiations with these tech giants. It was very comforting to hear you say in your opening remarks that companies are feeling comfortable, and that they've moved from pessimism to optimism. Can you give some evidence, some numbers, on how these companies are doing, especially the smaller journalism news outlets?
2:45 p.m.
Professor, Crawford School of Public Policy, The Australian National University, As an Individual
On the companies involved with Country Press, the 180 media organizations with Country Press Australia, I would certainly urge the committee to get in touch with them. From my understanding—I'm sorry I can't share this and I realize that it's what I said before on the improvement of the Canadian bill—I think they got more money per journalist than anybody else. The smallest rural ones, all these newspapers that have been in existence for a long time, have done extremely well, and they would be quite happy to tell you about this.
I should add, just in relation to the digital natives, that they are all in favour, to my understanding, of the Australian bill. They have all benefited and it is helping them, as small digital natives, to grow as well. We're not only getting the traditional Country Press Australia papers benefiting enormously and being very appreciative, but we're also getting the digital natives, the ones that innovate and come into the market, being comfortable. There's no issue there at all. None of them are complaining.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
That's very comforting to hear.
To follow up, Dr. Sims, if our local media starts doing well, can you see the trend of small outlets closing cease, and perhaps even see—to address what has been referred to here as “news deserts”—expansion into other regions? Is that a possibility?
2:50 p.m.
Professor, Crawford School of Public Policy, The Australian National University, As an Individual
Oh, there's no doubt in my mind, with the Australian code and what I understand is in Bill C-18, that you are going to get growth in smaller publications. This does give them the ability to do that. Certainly, some of those Country Press Australia organizations are going to use some of that money to be much more sophisticated digital players as well, and that will help them grow. They will benefit and grow. There's just no doubt.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
That's also good to hear.
Maybe I could turn to you now, Mr. Deegan. Bill C-18 is just one of the tools in the government's tool box that we're trying to support journalism with. Can you speak to other programs that the government has introduced that would benefit this sector—perhaps the periodical fund or the local journalism initiative?
2:50 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, News Media Canada
Sure. In this past year's budget are a number of supports for journalism that we think are terrific. One is the local journalism initiative. Our adjudication panel is chaired by Duff Jamison of Great West publishing in Alberta. He's a terrific journalist. That program, which was $10 million in the past, is $20 million this year. That's very helpful.
There's also an aid to publishers program, which for newspapers I think is $16 million or so. Again, this is hugely helpful.
Then there's the one that Mr. Waugh and I were speaking about a minute ago. In this year's budget, they've announced $40 million over the next three years to support journalism. If a strong proportion of that could be dedicated to the very small publications, those that Jen Gerson was referring to that don't have the two arm's-length employees, I think that would be very important.
It's important to support those smaller outlets. A number of them are digital innovators and folks like Jen who are doing really good work, but there are also print publications that are very small. We have on our board Sarah Holmes from the Gabriola Sounder in British Columbia. It's a very small paper. She and her husband are putting it out. They don't have the two arm's-length employees. So to look at funding like that, $40 million over the next three years for tiny, smaller publications like that, I think would be hugely important, because without her there is no news in her community.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you very much.
Tim, you have 10 seconds left. Do you want to say something else?