Canadian Heritage Committee on Sept. 27th, 2022

[Monika Ille]

That's a very good question and it's very tricky to answer. We have not been approached; we have not approached them either.

We know, like everybody knows, that deals were made with the larger news outlets. I'm trying to figure out where APTN fits in this overall picture. We are a national network. We have our six days a week news in English and one a week in French. We provide numerous news stories that would definitely benefit from being on those big platforms and...being fairly compensated for the work we do.

I don't feel that it's a level playing field right now. I'm trying to see how this bill will benefit us in reality once it is enacted.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I've always respected the work that your organization has done, specifically around child protection, child welfare and accountability. I think it's a much-needed voice in Canada. I want to say on the record that I have really appreciated the work you've done in the past as an organization.

If we don't make any changes, what does the trajectory look like for an organization like yours? If nothing was done, if this bill wasn't introduced and if we just kept going forward, what do you think the future would look like?

[Monika Ille]

I definitely think we need to be compensated for our news stories. More and more we're getting traction. Like I was saying, people are watching our stories. They want to have the indigenous perspectives on what's going on in Canada.

Facebook and Google are where people are going. We've noticed—just us, as followers on social media—that Facebook is the number one for us. We have people coming to really consume our stories. It would be great if we could have something from that to help us continue to grow indigenous storytelling and grow indigenous journalists.

We have way more to do. We're a very small team, but we could do way more.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Your content is uploaded to Facebook, through your organization or others, but no compensation relationship applies, based on the revenue Facebook would pull in from advertisement with your content.

[Monika Ille]

Right now, no, we don't have that.

[Michael Coteau, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Finally, you said the bill would be strengthened if there were specific language around the importance of organizations like yours and the indigenous voice. What would that wording look like to you, and where would it be within the bill?

[Monika Ille]

Certainly, there are various places where we could put it, but I just alluded to paragraph 11(1)(a), which talks about the exemptions. We just talked about indigenous communities, and that's the only time the word “indigenous” is noted in this bill.

If we talk about the need for indigenous news, the importance of ensuring there is a significant portion of indigenous stories in news outlets, and the sustainability of indigenous news.... This just shows the importance, I guess, of the big techs needing to understand how important indigenous news is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Ille. Perhaps we can expand on that the next time around.

I will now go to Ms. Desbiens for five minutes.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Ashfield, I have another question for you, on the topic that we broached earlier.

I want to bring your attention and that of the committee to a phenomenon that concerns Île d'Orléans and a small local newspaper called Autour de l'Île. There is a writer and composer from Île d'Orléans who is quite famous in Europe. I'm talking about Félix Leclerc. He lived on the island and is a local icon. A small newspaper, Autour de l'Île, enjoys an international presence because a large number of Europeans read it because of the link with Île d'Orléans and Félix Leclerc.

Perhaps some of your small newspapers also have such a celebrity following. Are you aware of this phenomenon and the associated concerns? If the newspaper were to fold, the link with the international community would disappear as well.

[Chris Ashfield]

I'm sorry, but I lost you there for a bit. What was the question?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I'm stopping the clock until we get this sorted out.

Would you like to repeat your question, Ms. Desbiens?

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I'm going to try to speak a bit more slowly for our wonderful interpreters. Perhaps that is the problem.

There is a famous person who lived on Île d'Orléans. A small newspaper, called Autour de l'Île, which only has one reporter on its payroll, might have to fold if we don't bring a small amendment to Bill C‑18, to include print media that employ only one editor or reporter.

Because of Félix Leclerc's celebrity status as a writer and composer who is well known in Europe, the newspaper in question is read not only regionally but also internationally. The newspaper might fold if print media who employ only one reporter are not included in the bill. This situation is worrying for us.

Have you witnessed this type of phenomenon over the course of your journalistic career?

[Chris Ashfield]

Yes, I think you would see that most community newspapers have a reach far outside their own community, though the majority of it is within that community.

Speaking for myself, I've seen how national incidents in the last couple of years, within our coverage area—such as the death of an RCMP officer on duty and the discovery of unmarked graves at the Cowessess First Nation—have pushed people to our websites. We've also had other media turn to us for photos, information, contacts and things like that.

Even though we're a smaller publication, we have national and international stories that do periodically happen. They don't happen all the time, but for our local readers—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Mr. Ashfield, I'm sorry. Our time is up on this one.

I'll go now to Mr. Julian for two and a half minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I have a very quick question for you, Ms. Ageson. How many of the members of your coalition, the Independent Online News Publishers of Canada, are currently not covered by Bill C-18 without amendments?

We have talked about freelancers, owner-journalists. How many of the members of your coalition right now would not be covered by Bill C-18 unless those amendments are brought in?

[Jeanette Ageson]

That's a very good question. We haven't done the breakdown, specifically, on the size of organizations included on the list, but we do have a list available on the open letter that we signed. That would be a good idea to look at.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Yes, it would. If you would be able to furnish that information to the committee, I think it would be very helpful to us. Thank you.

I'm going to go to Mr. Kint.

Thank you very much for coming here.

You've talked about the dominant platforms. In my area, the online companies have devastated our local news sources. I saw the death of two of the four weekly papers and cutbacks in publications. I represent two communities that cover a third of a million people and yet the number of local news sources fell in half.

How important is it to stop that hemorrhaging of local media and ensure that we have a sound foundation for the future? How important is it to counter the disinformation that we're seeing increasingly on the online platforms?

[Jason Kint]

It's vitally important. I think it's one of the most important aspects of this bill—like in Australia—and this bill will accomplish that. The collective bargaining aspect of it is the critical piece. That's the linchpin, as I described it.

At least what I've heard from Australia is that these smaller publishers—we heard this in testimony on Friday—are receiving more funding per journalist than the larger publishers, so that goes directly to local.... I've also heard that 25% to 30% of their wages is now coming in through this new funding. That's significant, and that's significant to high-integrity information, high-integrity brands that are trusted locally, and that also combats disinformation. It's critical to democracy.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

These are important figures: 25% to 30%, nearly a third, of wages being covered. What you're saying is that if we don't do this, if Bill C-18 isn't adopted, that hemorrhaging that I described will continue.

[Jason Kint]

It will absolutely continue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Mr. Julian.

I think, Mr. Kint, that's the end of your time slot here.

I now go to the Conservatives.

Mr. Waugh, you have five minutes.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm going to go back to the Saskatchewan Weekly Newspapers Association, if you don't mind.

You represent 56 members. You do know that with Bill C-18 you need two full-time employees in the newsroom, not at arm's length from the owners or the publishers. So, out of the 56 newspapers that you represent in my province of Saskatchewan, how many would be eligible for funding out of Bill C-18, and how many would not be eligible for funding out of Bill C-18? Can you give me those numbers?

Chris or Steve.

[Steve Nixon, Executive Director, Saskatchewan Weekly Newspapers Association]

At this stage, we have about four publications that have been able to access this type of funding. Most of our members would not meet this requirement.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Four out of 56...and we're going to save the Saskatchewan Weekly Newspapers Association. So, if there are no amendments made to Bill C-18, despite what our friend from the NDP has said here at committee, this really does no good whatsoever for the weekly newspapers in Lanigan, in Lloydminster, in Langenburg, and others.

I have looked at your page. You know, I asked a question last week about The World-Spectator in Moosomin. How much money would it get if this bill passes? Nobody has been able to tell me what that newspaper is eligible for.

Steve, could you tell me if The World-Spectator in Moosomin today would receive any money if this Bill C-18 passes through the House?

[Steve Nixon]

They may. It's undetermined. They are skeptical that it would be beneficial to them at all.