Canadian Heritage Committee on Oct. 7th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 46 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage.

I would like to acknowledge that this meeting is taking place on the unceded traditional territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Pursuant to the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, September 20, 2022, the committee is meeting for a briefing session to discuss the Department of Canadian Heritage's contract with the Community Media Advocacy Centre.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to House order of Thursday, June 23. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I have a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute your mike when you are not speaking.

With regard to interpretation for those on Zoom, you have a choice at the bottom of your screen. You will see a little globe. You can press that, and you can listen in the language of your choice, English or French. For those in the room, most of you know how to use your microphones appropriately; you've been doing it for a long time now.

I will remind you that all questions should be addressed through the chair.

Appearing at today's meeting is the Honourable Ahmed Hussen, Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion. We will have the minister for one hour.

Minister, you have five minutes to present, and then it will be open to questions and answers. What I will do is give you a 30-second heads-up when you have just 30 seconds left, so I can cut you off when I need to. Thank you.

You can begin, Minister, for five minutes, please.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion]

Madam Chair and members of the committee, good afternoon. Thank you for your invitation to appear today and for this opportunity to discuss the funding granted—and subsequently terminated—to the Community Media Advocacy Centre.

I am joined today by Mala Khanna, associate deputy minister, Canadian Heritage.

I want to begin by reiterating that anti-Semitism and hatred in all its forms have no place in Canada. Our government is firmly committed to fighting racism.

In 2019 when our government created Canada's first ever anti-racism strategy, we did so with a clear direction to support community organizations across Canada, addressing the issues of anti-racism and multiculturalism.

Through the anti-racism action program, funding was intended to empower communities on the ground and to help address all forms of racism and discrimination.

When it comes to the selection process, we expect funded organizations to uphold the core values championed through the anti-racism strategy. That, of course, wasn't the case with one of the organizations.

The anti-Semitic, hateful and xenophobic comments made by Laith Marouf are vile and reprehensible. I have said this before and I'll say it again: I condemn them in the strongest possible terms.

The fact that the Community Media Advocacy Centre received federal funding while employing Mr. Marouf is unacceptable and should, quite frankly, never have happened. The contract with CMAC has since been terminated, and we have sought to recover all payments made to the organization.

It is clear that the vetting process failed. This individual slipped through the cracks during the review of the CMAC application. The incident reflects a failure in the system and is a slap in the face to the Jewish community, the francophone community and many other groups that he has continuously attacked with his hateful comments, and for that, I sincerely apologize.

We are determined to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again, so today I am grateful for the opportunity to be here to speak with you about the immediate actions we have taken and the work we are continuing to do to strengthen how we assess and vet projects.

I have asked Canadian Heritage to undertake a comprehensive review of the assessment of applications and to introduce enhanced training on application verification for all program officers.

This will include enhanced diversity and inclusion training for all program officers, including anti-racism and anti-Semitism awareness training.

I've also asked officials to introduce conditions in all of our funding agreements that will allow the federal government to take immediate action should any organization or individual be identified as having promoted or shared hate, racism, anti-Semitism or discrimination in any form.

This will help us to ensure that, moving forward, we can move quickly and decisively as soon as we are made aware. All organizations and individuals that see their funding cut in this manner will also never be eligible for future funding. These are important measures and will help us prevent hateful groups or individuals from slipping through the cracks.

These have been informed by working closely with Jewish community organizations and community leaders and groups, such as the Centre for Israel and Jewish Affairs and B'nai Brith, as well as members of Parliament. We thank them for their advocacy in ensuring that all voices were reflected in our efforts because, as we know, racism, hate and anti-Semitism remain a reality in Canada.

This is why our government has been steadfast in our commitments to fight racism and anti-Semitism at every turn. From the appointment of the Honourable Irwin Cotler as Canada's Special Envoy on Preserving Holocaust Remembrance and Combatting Antisemitism to holding Canada's first-ever National Summit on Antisemitism, we've been working closely with the Jewish community to ensure that their voices are heard and reflected in our actions.

Through this year's budget alone, we're committing important supports for the construction of the new Holocaust museum, as well as for the Sarah and Chaim Neuberger Holocaust education centre.

We are now going to renew and reform our anti-racism strategy, which will be informed by our conversations with members of all communities—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds, Minister.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

—who continue to face racism, hate and discrimination on every turn. This includes those communities that have been attacked by Mr. Marouf directly.

Thank you for your time. I'm happy to answer your questions.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Minister.

We are now moving to the question and answer segment. This will begin with a six-minute segment. I don't have the Conservative list with me, so I don't know who starts off for the Conservatives.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, I'll start off.

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for presenting today at committee.

Mr. Housefather provided the minister's office with information in July about Mr. Marouf's vile anti-Semitism. After this came to light, a statement was made only on August 22. That's at least 22 days, if Mr. Housefather told the minister's office on July 31.

I want to know what day you were made aware of Mr. Marouf's vile, anti-Semitic hate spewed everywhere, which I think a simple Google search could have turned up.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I want to make this absolutely clear: The comments made by this individual are absolutely appalling. I've said this before and I'll say it again. They are reprehensible and vile. We condemn the anti-Semitism, racism and hatred that he has spread in the strongest possible terms.

I thank MP Housefather for bringing this individual to our attention. When this issue was raised, we immediately asked the Department of Canadian Heritage to confirm the organization's project funding details and to inform us on the procedural next steps. After the review by the legal department, we followed the process in place to cut funding to the organization, as well as terminate the project.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I asked what day you were made aware in July. Presuming that it took at least 22 days for you to make a public statement, I just want to know why it took so long.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I want to assure the honourable member and this committee that when this was first brought to our attention, we had much less information than we do today, of course. Right away I asked my office and my team to look into the situation and provide me with options to address this quickly.

Do I wish that we were able to move the process along more quickly? Absolutely, but it was also important that we got this right to ensure accountability for this organization and this individual and for any other individual or group that may seek to apply for government funding.

That's why we're moving forward on the introduction of robust new vetting measures—enhanced measures—one of which will be to ensure that the Government of Canada can act more quickly and more immediately, as appropriate.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Minister, with all due respect, if you were told by a member of your own team in July and it took until August 22 to come up with a statement on something so serious, I would certainly ask questions about the process.

The minister initially tried to claim shock at the entire affair, calling the issue one of the CMAC—which we know is an organization of Mr. Marouf and his wife and no one else—despite the fact that the minister personally praised Mr. Marouf in a press release on April 14, saying, “Our government is proud to contribute to the initiative....”

I have a few questions. Did no one google Mr. Marouf, his wife, or the organization? I also want to know from the minister what he was ostensibly proud of.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

First of all, I want to thank the honourable member for the question.

Because the funding, with respect to the news release, was already approved in the summer of 2021 before I became the minister responsible for the file, we trusted at that time that adequate vetting had been completed. However, as we have said, this individual fell through the cracks. The vetting process failed in this case, and this is completely unacceptable.

This is why I am happy to inform the committee that we're putting in place new, enhanced, robust measures to ensure that this type of thing never ever happens again. I'm happy to go through the details of the new, enhanced vetting process—

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Madam Chair, I think Canadians want to know who approved the release and whether this is an omission or incompetence. Did nobody google anybody in the release? Why would the government say that it is proud of the work that was being done by the vile anti-Semitic hatred that has been spewed all over the Internet? A simple Google search by the minister's office, anybody in the minister's organization, anybody in the Department of Canadian Heritage or anybody in the Canadian government at all would have turned that up.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

I agree with the honourable member. This is why your question is very important. I completely agree with you that, in this particular case, the process used to select this organization failed, and that is clearly unacceptable. That is why we did the right thing by launching a review of how this organization was vetted and approved for funding.

One of the things the review showed is that the evaluation process did not initially detect the hateful comments made by this individual of this organization.

We're taking swift action to make sure this never happens again by introducing—

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Minister, I realize that you're looking at—

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Madam Chair, if I could just finish the answer, I'm sure the honourable member will appreciate what we're putting in place to make sure this never happens again.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

Minister, I'd just like to know this: Who did you trust in the department? Are you saying that you can't trust your department going forward?

My second question, if you'll be so kind to answer it.... Mr. Marouf claims that the CMAC—which is, in actual fact, Mr. Marouf and his wife and no one else, so it's not an organization, but just somebody and his wife—was approached by Canadian Heritage—

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

You have 30 seconds, Ms. Lantsman.

[Melissa Lantsman, Conservative, Thornhill, ON]

—and was begged to develop an anti-racism proposal. I want to know if that's true. I want to know if you've asked your department, and I want to know if you can trust the answer from the Department of Canadian Heritage.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

The minister has 17 seconds to answer.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Because I only have a few seconds left, I'll say to the honourable member once again that the vetting process in this case failed. Our responsibility is to ensure that this never happens again by introducing new and enhanced robust measures. That's exactly what we're doing. Until then, no single dollar will go out. All funding has been paused to make sure that this never happens again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you very much, Minister.

I'm going to move to the Liberals and Ms. Saks.

Ya'ara, you have six minutes, please.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank Minister Hussen and the team from the department who are joining us today to address this egregious error that took place in terms of funding for the CMAC.

First, Minister, I want to thank you for reiterating our government's unwavering commitment to tackling all forms of racism and hate, including anti-Semitism, particularly since the government did adopt the IHRA definition in 2019 and made a strong commitment for a whole-of-government approach in ensuring that anti-Semitism and all forms of hate are not seen in any of our programming or in any of our departments.

I'd like to thank you as well for being here today to talk about the action you're taking to hold Laith Marouf and the CMAC accountable for the hateful, anti-Semitic and racist comments that Mr. Marouf made and to ensure that no organization like this ever—and I repeat “ever”—receives federal anti-racism funding again.

As the minister has stated, he's been working with organizations, and I can say, as a member of the community, that I'm very grateful for the time and attention that's been put, both among colleagues and with the CIJA, the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal, and B'nai Brith into working together to resolve this issue.

I understand the situation was brought to your attention by our colleague, MP Housefather, and that you and your office were to cut off the funding for the CMAC, as you mentioned in your opening statement, and to put in place new processes to ensure that nothing like this ever happens again.

Minister, I'd like you to take some time to explain the steps that are being taken to ensure that organizations like the CMAC never slip through the cracks in terms of applying for funding through the Department of Canadian Heritage.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Thank you so much to the honourable member for her important question.

I will say once again that part of our responsibility is to make sure that we learn from the fact that, in this particular case, the vetting process failed, and we're taking swift action to make sure this never happens again. We're doing so by introducing a new vetting process that is being established by the Department of Canadian Heritage. We're enhancing the agreement between Canadian Heritage and applicants—organizations applying for funding—and introducing further penalties to successful applicants who showcase racism, hate and bigotry. We will continue to take every measure to ensure this never happens again.

We are also putting in place enhanced vetting training for program officers, ensuring that multiple officials review each and every application, and enhanced anti-racism and anti-Semitism training for all program officers. To develop this training, we will be working with the special envoy to combat anti-Semitism, the Honourable Irwin Cotler. We'll also be working with the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center and the Jewish Public Servants' Network to develop this program. It will also include training on the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism.

We'll also implement conditions in all funding agreements to allow the government to take immediate action if any organization or individual is identified as having promoted hate and to ensure that all organizations that see their funding cut in this manner will never be eligible for future funding.

I want to assure members of the committee that not a single federal dollar will be rolling out until these measures are fully in place. We're working to ensure that these measures are in place as quickly as possible.

[Ya'ara Saks, Liberal, York Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

I'd like to go into that a little deeper because, as you stated in your opening remarks, we know that in this case the vetting process failed. As we move forward to ensure that this doesn't happen again.... I mentioned in my opening question about the IHRA definition being an anchor in terms of how the government approaches its understanding of anti-Semitism.

Just for clarification, in all of these measures that we're taking, especially with the work of the special envoy, Irwin Cotler, and the work that Canada has done on the international stage to ensure that it is a partner in the formation of the IHRA definition and also in its application and use not just here in Canada but internationally, there's that whole-of-government approach. You can only, of course, speak to your department, but is there an emphasis here to ensure that the IHRA definition is part of the training, is part of the vetting and is part of the lens going forward that the department understands is what we need to address here? Really, the Laith Marouf case is a litmus test of why the IHRA definition is so important and why the government adopted it.

Could you comment, please?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Absolutely, and I appreciate your emphasis on those measures going forward. I want to reiterate that our measures will include enhanced online and social media vetting training and enhanced diversity and inclusion training for all program officers, including anti-Semitism and anti-racism awareness training, all of which will be informed by the IHRA working definition of anti-Semitism. I want to assure the honourable member that we will ensure that our findings and our measures are shared with other government departments so that they learn from this incident, making sure that we can move forward in a way that ensures that these types of situations never happen again.

We're also putting all funding requests on hold—