Evidence of meeting #57 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Aimée Belmore
Thomas Owen Ripley  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Cultural Affairs, Department of Canadian Heritage

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

This amendment was suggested by the Fédération nationale des communications et de la culture.

We suggest two things: limit the duration of the interim order to one year and provide for public consultation. This would bring more transparency.

The bill does not set a limit on the interim order. If there were a one-year limit, there would be no loopholes and it would prevent us from going from one interim order to another ad infinitum.

The two components of this are to increase public transparency by having the possibility of public consultations, a very important element around interim orders, and then to ensure that interim orders cannot continue for more than one year. Therefore, it's no longer going to be a loophole that they could potentially use.

With those two components, and with thanks to the Fédération nationale des communications et de la culture, I move NDP-9.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I see no hands up to discuss NDP-9.

Is there a hand that I did not notice?

Yes, go ahead, Mrs. Thomas.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I just want to clarify something with the mover.

My understanding of this is that essentially we're setting a sunset clause that creates greater transparency and accountability, but also an opportunity to revisit.

Is that part of this?

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

It would mean that an interim order couldn't continue for more than a year. I would suggest that it's not so much a sunset clause as a limitation on interim orders so that they can't be used as a loophole. There would have to be valid reasons for that interim order. To add the element around public consultations is important, but that is something that the commission can fix and put into place as well.

I would suggest that it's limiting a loophole and ensuring more public transparency.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

Just to clarify once again, the public consultations would be around the exemption order, so basically members of the public would be given an opportunity to pipe up as to whether or not they feel the exemption should be granted to a DNI.

11:20 a.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Yes.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I'll ask a question to Mr. Ripley. How would this practically roll out in terms of a public consultation around something like this?

11:20 a.m.

Thomas Owen Ripley Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Cultural Affairs, Department of Canadian Heritage

Thank you, MP Thomas.

Through the chair, if I may, the framework as intended in the bill is again to incentivize digital news intermediaries and news businesses to come to voluntary agreements in relation to the exemption criteria. The idea is that the CRTC would assess the agreements in relation to those exemption criteria.

The power to issue an interim exemption was a recognition that in doing that assessment, the CRTC could conclude that a platform was close but, for example, may be missing a degree of regional representation or something like that. The idea behind an interim order was that rather than it being “no exemption, and now you must go to mandatory bargaining”, it's a tool to provide to the to CRTC to say, “Your agreements fall short in this particular area. You have a period of time to go and rectify that, and then essentially we will reconsider whether you merit an exemption.”

If I understand MP Julian's amendment on the table, it's, one—as he has indicated—to specify that the interim exemption period cannot last longer than a year. My understanding of the consultation language that is being proposed is that it would essentially require the CRTC, prior to concluding whether the DNI merits an exemption at the end of the interim period, to go back and do another consultation. I think that's our understanding of the amendment, but I certainly defer to MP Julian if he has a different intention in mind. Partly that's because, based on the amendment that this committee passed last time we were here, there will already have been a public consultation on the question of whether an exemption should be granted or not.

In summary, there's public consultation on exemption; then CRTC issues an interim order, and then our understanding of what MP Julian is proposing is that prior to rolling that over into a longer exemption order or not, there would have to be a subsequent second consultation.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

In practical terms, are you able to help me understand just what a public consultation by the commission looks like? Do we have another example of this being done by the CRTC?

11:25 a.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Cultural Affairs, Department of Canadian Heritage

Thomas Owen Ripley

I would say that there is a spectrum of consultation that the CRTC does. It could mean providing an opportunity for stakeholders to make written submissions, and then essentially the CRTC conducts a paper process based on the written submissions. A public consultation with this kind of language—“to be held at a time and place in Canada to be fixed by the commission”—is short form for saying that there must actually be a public hearing where the CRTC, in a physical place, has to conduct a hearing and provide an opportunity for stakeholders to come and make representations in person. It's a full public consultation, not just a written process.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

I see no further hands up, so I shall go to the question.

(Amendment agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Shall clause 12 as amended carry?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

No.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Did somebody say something?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I said no.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Are you the only person saying no on your side of the fence?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

We're asking for a roll call.

(Clause 12 as amended agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Shall clause 13 carry?

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

No.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I hear “no” on this side. Shall we go with clause 13, Clerk, and ensure that it's carried?

(Clause 13 agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Shall clause 14 carry?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

No.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Again, please call the vote, Clerk.

(Clause 14 agreed to: yeas 7; nays 4)

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

Shall clause 15 carry?

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

No to all of them.

11:30 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

You're consistent, Mr. Waugh.

Go ahead, Martin.