Canadian Heritage Committee on Dec. 2nd, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Are you seeing full agreement?

[The Clerk]

No, I'm not. Did you want me to call the vote?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

That's why I asked you to please call the vote.

[The Clerk]

Did you want me to call a recorded division every time?

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Yes. Yes.

[The Clerk]

Thank you.

(Amendment negatived: nays 7; yeas 4 [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

We now go to NDP-13.

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

To cause happiness throughout the committee, I will be withdrawing NDP-13 in favour of NDP-16, which will be coming up for consideration a little later on. We have one amendment fewer to debate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

That's because it was going to move a whole bunch of other ones out of the discussion. It has been removed entirely.

We now go to CPC-19.

If CPC-19 is adopted, CPC-19.1, NDP-14, NDP-15, PV-5, NDP-16, CPC-20 and G-2 cannot be moved, due to a line conflict.

Is Mrs. Thomas speaking to CPC-19?

Go ahead, Mrs. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Essentially, one thing we heard from many of the witnesses who came forward was a concern around the stipulation that there must be two journalists in order to fit the criteria.

Many of the local newspaper outlets function with one journalist. Perhaps one journalist is even shared between two different organizations. This is commonplace, particularly in rural areas where these small newspapers exist, oftentimes, as well as in ethnic media outlets. One thing we heard time and again from witnesses who appeared here in person, but also in written briefs submitted to us, was that they wished to see this reality accounted for—that there are often not two full-time journalists.

Ultimately, that is what we are trying to amend here. We would make sure that local news outlets and ethnic news media are able to enter into negotiations and that smaller players are not left out in the cold but are included in this bill. One reason this is so important is that much of this bill is already bent in favour of large newspaper conglomerates or larger broadcasters. It's been stated by the Parliamentary Budget Officer that about 75% of the money will be going towards these larger broadcasters.

Our attempt here is to stand up for the newspapers and make sure they get a fair shake.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Is there any discussion?

Go ahead, Kevin.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I totally agree with Mrs. Thomas on this. We only heard from the Alberta and Saskatchewan news associations, but we didn't hear from B.C.'s or others.

When we heard from Saskatchewan, up to 80% of the local newspapers in their province would not qualify with two reporters. We then heard some despairing comments from the Alberta newspapers association. We heard from the publisher of St. Albert that 50% of Alberta will qualify and that this was fine. However, I think around the table, Madam Chair, we would agree that it isn't fine.

We want to include everybody in this bill. When this bill first came out, as you all know, it was designed to help the small and medium-sized newspapers, and I think this is a great change to the bill. I would strongly support it.

We've just heard from two, as I said, from Saskatchewan and Alberta. We didn't hear from any other news agencies across the country, but I'm sure glad that the Conservatives brought Saskatchewan and Alberta together to hear their concerns on this bill. I agree with this amendment wholeheartedly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Is there any other discussion?

Marilyn, is your hand up?

[The Clerk]

Dr. Fry, I have Mr. Bittle first, then Ms. Gladu and then Mr. Julian.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Go ahead, Mr. Bittle.

[Chris Bittle, Liberal, St. Catharines, ON]

Thank you so much, Madam Chair.

Very quickly, we heard from UNIFOR about jobs disappearing, and we want to encourage news organizations to hire. That being said, we understand the concerns that have been raised.

Though I don't support this particular clause, I am in favour of NDP-16, which I think addresses some of the issues that are at play here.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Go ahead, Ms. Gladu.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I wanted to highlight as well that we heard about this difficulty when sometimes an owner of a small media organization also acts as a journalist or at least a part-time journalist. This amendment addresses that situation as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Peter Julian.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I'm exuberant at the Conservatives' sudden support for Bill C-18. That's wonderful.

As you know, I've been raising for weeks and weeks the issue of the Alberta community newspapers and the Saskatchewan community newspapers while Conservatives pooh-poohed the bill and the legislation and then filibustered it to draw it out. If they are now coming on board and saying they're going to support Bill C-18, that is great news.

We've made a lot of improvements to the bill so far. NDP-16 addresses the issue of those journalists who are partners or who own the business, which was a concern of community newspapers, and I'll be supporting NDP-16. The CPC amendment does not do the job that NDP-16 does.

That said, I think it's very important as well that the government continue to provide supports to businesses that are just starting out, and there are programs available for those businesses that are just starting. I'm going to be voting against CPC-19, but voting for NDP-16, so that we're enlarging the scope of eligibility. I will say that the amendments that have been adopted so far do that as well, so that's all wonderful.

I'm very happy about the support of my Conservative colleagues now for Bill C-18. That's very good news. Let's keep going on, getting NDP-16 adopted and building more improvements into the bill.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Ms. Gladu, do you want to speak again? Go ahead.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I want to clarify for Mr. Julian that I do not support Bill C-18. I share the concerns that have been raised by constitutional lawyers and by our friends in the U.S. I do not think it will achieve the purpose for which it is intended.

However, it is clear that the NDP-Liberal marriage is going to force this bill through, so my attempt here is to minimize the damage that will be done, to try to get the benefit for small media organizations and to try to prevent some of the unintended, hugely negative consequences that will happen.

It's too bad the government wouldn't just take money from Facebook and Google, which are willing to give it, and give it to a consortium of small media outlets and let them divvy the pot, and not let CBC, the Bell news media and Rogers walk off with 75% of it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Ms. Gladu.

Clerk, is there anyone else on the floor?

[The Clerk]

There's Mrs. Thomas.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Go ahead, Mrs. Thomas.