Canadian Heritage Committee on March 10th, 2023

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I would like to express how concerned and disturbed I am by this so-called test by Google here in Canada. As a former member of the media in Hamilton, I know from my constituents—they tell me regularly—how important it is for them to have access to good local news and news coverage. We know that these days, a lot of people go through a Google search to find certain stories. I'm incredibly concerned by this. I think it shows that Google is abusing its dominance in the marketplace in order to try to strong-arm the Canadian government.

I would like to remind the committee that this type of legislation actually worked really well in Australia for both big players and small local media outlets.

Madam Chair, I think we as committee members have noted that at this point, we are not getting fulsome answers from these witnesses. I move that we put these witnesses under oath.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you.

Does anyone on the committee object to the suggestion that we put the witnesses under oath?

I see no objection, so we'll move to do that. Thank you.

Go ahead, Clerk.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Michael MacPherson]

I'll begin with Ms. Geremia.

Would you prefer a religious oath or a solemn affirmation?

[Sabrina Geremia]

A solemn affirmation, please.

[The Clerk]

Okay. This shouldn't take too long. I'll just get you to repeat the following after me:

I—state your name—do solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare the taking of any oath is according to my religious belief unlawful. I do also solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[Sabrina Geremia]

I, Sabrina Geremia, do solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare the taking of any oath is according to my religious belief unlawful. I do also solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[The Clerk]

That's it.

We'll move on to Mr. Kee.

[Jason Kee]

I'd like to do the solemn affirmation, please.

[The Clerk]

Thank you.

I—state your name—do solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare the taking of any oath is, according to my religious belief, unlawful. I do also solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[Jason Kee]

I, Jason Kee, do solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare the taking of any oath is, according to my religious belief, unlawful. I do also solemnly, sincerely and truly affirm and declare that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thank you, Mr. Kee.

The witnesses have been duly sworn in, committee, so we can now proceed with Ms. Hepfner's questions.

Before we go to Ms. Hepfner, I would just like to suggest, first, that it's very clear what this committee wanted to meet about, and it was not only to discuss tests. It is very clear that this committee was asked for the activities of Google in reaction to Bill C-18, not limited to the decision to test the blocking of news sites. This is not a limited committee hearing.

Second, the committee asked for any internal or external communications, including but not limited to emails, texts or other forms of messages related to actions it planned to take or options it considered in relation to Canada's Bill C-18, including but not limited to those in relation to the testing of the blocking of news items. Once again, it's not limited to testing.

The committee asked for the list of all news organizations blocked by Google in Canada. There was a time to deliver this. An extra week was given to Google because of technological difficulties on Monday, so I am just putting that on the table for those listening and for Google to understand that it was very clear what was required of you, and so that in answering, since you've taken an oath, you will really consider the questions the committee has raised pertaining to your appearance here.

Thank you.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Geremia, please tell us which Canadians specifically were targeted for this so-called test and why those Canadians were targeted.

[Sabrina Geremia]

This is a technical question that is not in my area of expertise. I'm not trying to be evasive here. I have a subject matter expert—Jason.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

It's a pretty simple question, Ms. Geremia. Do you not know which Canadians were specifically targeted in this test?

[Sabrina Geremia]

There were no.... This was not a targeted test. When tests are done, they are done with random samples, but again, I have a subject matter expert.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Okay, that was an answer. Thank you.

I'm asking because surveys by journalism organizations like the Canadian Association of Journalists and Unifor Media Council have suggested in the last couple of weeks that these tests were disproportionately impacting media workers, so journalists in particular, it seems, were targeted by these tests.

Is that true, Ms. Geremia?

[Sabrina Geremia]

That is categorically incorrect.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

For the purposes of this test, you needed to determine that what you were blocking was indeed a news source or news content, so how did you decide what was a news source when you were coming up with this test?

[Sabrina Geremia]

Madam Chair, I am the country manager for Google in Canada. I was aware of these tests but I was not close to the detail, and I have brought with me a subject matter expert who is in a better position to answer some of these more nuanced questions. I'd like to ask Jason—

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Kee, please tell us how you decided in this Google test what was a news source?

[Jason Kee]

As part of the normal course, product teams, legal teams and other experts, including, where appropriate, leadership, will conduct assessments with respect to what the potential impacts of legislative initiatives like Bill C-18 might be.

In the case of Bill C-18—

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I'm sorry, but we're not talking about Bill C-18 here, sir. I asked you specifically how Google is deciding what's news and what's not news for the purpose of this arbitrary test.

[Jason Kee]

In the case of Bill C-18, the effort was to utilize that bill—

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I'm not sure why you keep referring to the legislation, sir. I'm asking about the Google test and how Google decided what was news when it decided to block news from Canadians' Google feed.

[Jason Kee]

It was effectively an effort, utilizing our experience and partnerships teams, to identify what would constitute Canadian news organizations and Canadian news domains—