Marilyn, go ahead.
Evidence of meeting #69 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was google.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #69 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was google.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you, Chair.
My question is a technical one for Mr. Kee.
In terms of choosing the random Canadians who were involved in this specific test, how were they randomized? Was it by IP address? Was it according to news consumption habits? What were the criteria?
March 10th, 2023 / 2:45 p.m.
Public Policy Manager, Google Canada
They were identified as Canadians predominantly by their IP address. Other than that, it's completely randomized, using basic technological systems to do so.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
Marilyn Gladu Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Very good. Thank you.
I'll turn it over to Mr. Zimmer.
2:45 p.m.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Since we have Google here, as we know, the issue of smart cities has been coming up recently amongst many concerned citizens. You've admitted you're testing limiting news sources to Canadians. That brings the whole smart city question back up again, along with concerns about your being honest with users of your platform.
Then again, we don't trust the Prime Minister either. The CRTC is an arm of the government, and the threat to freedom of speech is a concern there as well. I'd say that today you have not reassured us in any way, shape or form that Canadians are okay with what you're doing.
I will just finish by saying that you couldn't answer certain questions from members here today, and I think it's a shame that your CEO, Mr. Pichai, wouldn't show up to answer our questions this morning.
Thank you.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry
Thank you, Mr. Zimmer.
Now I go to the Liberals and Anthony Housefather.
You have three minutes, Anthony.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you.
Ms. Geremia, did your company consult with outside counsel before running these tests?
2:45 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
I am not aware. I'd need to take that back to the team and get back to you.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Okay. In preparation for these hearings, did you have any meeting at all with the other three witnesses who were summoned by the committee but who didn't appear today?
2:45 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
I did not have a meeting with the three of them, no.
2:45 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Okay. Theoretically, they seem to have sent you here in their name, and you obviously do not, since you didn't meet with them, have access to their personal knowledge, which this committee wanted to get. I think we're going to need to hear from them and we're going to need to make sure they come.
Let me go to another question.
Google claimed that Bill C-18 could help spread misinformation and propaganda in Canada. However, in response to legislation, Google ran similar tests in Australia in January 2021. At that time, it blocked access to fact-based news sources and, in their place, as was shown, promoted sources of questionable quality—like The Epoch Times, for example—that were known for spreading a certain side of the story.
Did you do this when you did these tests in Canada, or did you take steps to make sure the errors you acknowledged having made in Australia were not made in these tests?
2:50 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
Madam Chair, I'd like to pass it to the expert in this area, who is Jason—
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
No. I asked you, Ms. Geremia. You are the witness we invited today, not him.
2:50 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
I do not have the answers to those questions. I'm not able to answer that.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
That's fair. I totally understand if you can't answer that question.
Ms. Geremia, one other question that I have is this. I know the Government of Canada advertises on Google. Do you think as a result the Government of Canada should cancel all of its advertising on Google, given the way you handled this test?
2:50 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
These are product tests. These are not product decisions. I can't speak to the decision of the government—
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
My last question, Ms. Geremia, is this. On a scale of one to 10, with one being the worst testing idea in the world and 10 being the absolute best, how would you rank this test, in your estimation, now having these facts in front of you as to how Canadians have reacted? That is one, worst; 10, best.
2:50 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
I don't have an opinion on a ranking of these tests. I know this is in response to a bill that's going to change the landscape of linking in Canada. These are—
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
At this point, is Google embarrassed, in any way, about the way it conducted these tests? Does it wish it hadn't?
2:50 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
It's a normal course of business to do testing. We want a path forward. We want to support a news ecosystem in Canada that's healthy and diverse. We have brought ideas to the table. This is not Australia. This is something very different, and I think Canadians would like us to find a path forward.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Google is listened to, and Google is not the Parliament of Canada. In the end, the Parliament of Canada makes decisions on Canadian laws, and not Google.
Thank you.
2:50 p.m.
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Ms. Geremia, let me come back to the issue of quality journalism. Another of the reasons I am shocked is that Google said that the new law would have a negative effect on the quality of online journalism. I wonder what makes Google an expert in this area. What makes Google any more reliable in determining what is quality journalism and what is poorer quality journalism? That's a comment, not a question.
Your manoeuvering—you call it “testing”, but we'll call it manoeuvering—leads me without hesitation to believe that you don't value quality journalism. You said earlier that Google, as a company, supports the fundamentals of an open web and the free flow of information.
I'm asking you a simple question: do you feel that these “tests” support that statement?
2:50 p.m.
Vice President and Country Manager, Google Canada
I'm sorry, but there was a bit of a jumble between the English and the French at the same time. Can you repeat the question, please?