Canadian Heritage Committee on March 27th, 2023

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Ms. Shore, I'd be interested to hear you weigh in on this.

[Kim Shore]

I have a similar perspective to both of you, with the exception that I think a national inquiry doesn't need to take as long as the way it's been described by many opposers, that it will take so long that it will take away from what they're doing right now.

I think many of the solutions that are being offered could work. Those are, though, very band-aid-like solutions. Until we truly know what's going on above the NSO level, the people who are making it difficult for the likes of board members like me and educators like Wendy to actually make material change, in the policies that are enacted that none of us can live...because they're not supported when we actually go and try to do the right thing.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Very good.

I want to switch gears for a minute and go to you, Ms. Glover. I'm very interested in best practices that we could put in place elsewhere to help prevent future situations of abuse. You're a secondary school teacher and have done work on this. I was interested in what you said about courses and curriculum in education and training.

What would your recommendation be in terms of how we could maybe leverage that for coaches, athletes and leadership?

[Wendy Glover]

The way we do it in our program is, for example, something like “respect in sport”, which a lot of people have heard of. We don't just have people complete the certification. We actually monitor the kids as they go into the community. We have feedback, evaluate them and mentor them along the way. It isn't just, “Take a cert and then it's over. You're good. Off you go.”

It can be through teachers and the school system. Hire people who can oversee coaches and administrators as they learn how to apply the information. They're not generally trained on how to follow up and effectively see whether they're applying it properly in their community.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Hedges, you talked about prevention. What would be your recommendations for the committee?

[Robert Hedges]

Moving forward—and it was just touched on by Ms. Glover—education and learning how we can teach the sports system to be better is the main thing. Education is good at all levels, as is using whatever resources are already out there to help facilitate and speed up this change.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

It appears to me that OSIC is not working and that Sports Canada is not working. Would witnesses agree that these organizations should be discontinued?

Ms. Shore, go ahead.

[Kim Shore]

I believe that we need a complaint mechanism run outside of sports. OSIC was developed by long-tenured sport academics and sport leaders, etc., and they are all in sports. It's being funded by Sport Canada, which is problematic right there, so take it outside of sport.

I spoke to someone who was on some of the original planning committees for the UCCMS and, I believe, OSIC as well. When they were meeting, they were calling for independence from sport, but it got misunderstood by somebody up there who thought independent from sport meant independent from the NSOs, the national sport organizations. What those individuals were calling for was complete independence from all sport, Sport Canada, sport ministry offices and everything. They wanted it outside of the sport umbrella

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I'm out of time.

If the rest of you can submit your answer to the clerk, that would be great.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Next is Tim Louis for the Liberals.

Tim, you have six minutes, please.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today, for your courage and for your stories.

I usually take a lot of notes, and I couldn't; it was that emotional.

Ms. Glover, perhaps I'll start with you.

Can you tell us more about how we can better educate those who coach athletes? You seem to be in the perfect situation, anti-harassment and discrimination.... What effective strategies can we improve on?

We hear stories about taking an online course and ticking a box, maybe in person or with certification, but that's not enough.

What could we do to move that needle?

[Wendy Glover]

I think we have to have a parent education system and an athlete education system. I have a lot of students who are 16 or 17 who are heading towards exiting the system, and they have no idea that there was a long-term athlete development guideline for their sport. They've been in the sport for 10 years, and they have no idea that you can click Hockey Canada or Canada Soccer and you can read exactly what's supposed to be happening in each age group. They're mind-boggled that they've never even seen it.

Why aren't these things taught to them, taught to the parents and explained clearly? Why isn't the reporting system, as you mentioned, on every organization's website, outlining step by step how you report? If we suspect abuse at school, I know exactly where I have to go and what I have to do, and it would be happening that day.

We're missing filling in the gaps of educating the parents. The reason they misbehave so often is that our athletes are so disillusioned with the process, and they don't understand it.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

We need to talk about educating the athletes themselves, the parents, then coaches and the administration. Thank you for that. It's very helpful.

How do we respond to those coaches who have been former athletes? They say, “It's always been this way. It was like that for me, and I came out all right.” How do we address that issue?

[Wendy Glover]

To be honest, that's heard constantly. Because they played, they think they know how to lead. Unfortunately, that's not the case. They're really good at the technical and the tactical side of the sport, but even applying that to particular age groups effectively is where there may be a gap in understanding. Linking child development and the stages of adolescent development to the actual coaching experience and the administrative experience is where I think the gap in understanding is missing. How to teach a 12-year-old a sport is not the same as how you would teach a 15-year-old or an 18-year-old who is exiting the sport.

A lot of professionalization of the sport is happening to children. There are not many pros, and there are not many adults. The lens that they're looking through has to be much more age appropriate at every age group.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Shore, to say there's an imbalance is obviously an understatement. We all want to protect and nurture our children, but we also want to give them opportunities to grow and succeed.

At the same time, you talk about creating a culture of creating athletes and pushing them to be elite as opposed to nurturing our children. That starts at a very young age. What's a model so that it can be done in a balanced way? Is there a good example, a jurisdiction, or some way that this can be done in a balanced way?

[Kim Shore]

I keeping going back to the national inquiry. The only way I can see this happening is for people to have a venue to go and speak to someone who they feel is neutral. I won't speak to anyone who is involved in the sports system right now. I was called out publicly in a national report, because I didn't speak. I was too scared to speak to them for fear that I might be called out.

I think we need to set up a safe structure that looks at sport outside sport, that starts to make some really clear mandates on how we're going to address this. I do think there's a role for the national safe sport policy to come out, to be informed not just by the anecdotal chitchat that's going on, but by evidence that is collected by an outside, call it what you want, “judicial individual”. Then you build the sport policy from there. You start to change the culture. You go at the grassroots level, like Wendy is saying, and you educate all the stakeholders.

It is a big process. It is going to take a while. We can do things along the way, but it's going to have to be step by step.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

In the final minute that I have, Mr. Sheehan, I want to give you the microphone.

You described it as having a loss of hope, yet you're here. You're here, and hopefully an inspiration to people who are younger than you.

What message of hope can you give to that younger generation that let's them know that you're speaking on behalf of so many people who are not here speaking?

[Ryan Sheehan]

I would definitely encourage other survivors to come forward. I think that coming forward is safer than ever, but there still is an incredibly long way to go to come forward and to feel completely safe. There are coalitions. There are scholars. There are a bunch of sports that have these coalitions to work together to bring out stories. I think the time is now. It's every little piece.... I don't know if today I'll make a difference or my testimony will make a difference, but you can't give up on something you love. I love gymnastics. It's been a part of my entire life. I hope this moves it forward in even the slightest way.

[Tim Louis, Liberal, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I assure you that all of your testimony is making a big difference. Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

I now go to the Bloc Québécois. We have Sébastien Lemire.

You have six minutes, please, Sébastien.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for their extremely poignant testimony. It helps us learn more about safe sport.

I see that the people in the room are also calling for an independent public inquiry, because in many cases, the existing system is only there to protect itself. For that reason, it hasn't been able to deliver justice.

I'd like to start with Mr. Hedges of AthletesCAN.

Mr. Hedges, I assume you watched the testimony given on Thursday for this committee's study, as well as the testimony presented to the Standing Committee on the Status of Women.

As a member of the AthletesCAN board of directors, how are you reacting to today's testimony?

What steps does your board plan to take in response to what was said today, particularly with regard to the abuse suffered by athletes?

[Robert Hedges]

Can you be a little bit more specific?

Generally, in the safe sport field, is that what you're asking?

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Are these issues that your board of directors is considering?

Based on what I see, AthletesCAN receives a lot of governmental or financial resources, or consulting resources. Your organization gets a lot of credibility, but when the time comes to act, it's pretty passive. There seems to be a close relationship between your board and Ms. Kerr, of the University of Toronto, and ITP Sport. It seems like things often go in circles and just uphold the status quo.

I'm struggling to see how you're part of the solution.

When you hear the kind of testimony we heard today, does it make you reflect on what you could do to take action?

[Robert Hedges]

Thank you for clarifying it.

Yes, at AthletesCAN we listen to all of these testimonies. We are working in the field. As I mentioned, we've conducted studies. We are—

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Madam Chair, there's no interpretation.