Evidence of meeting #76 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was athletes.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh
Thank you, Ms. McCormack.
We'll move now to the Liberals for five minutes, with Michael Coteau.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I want to start by thanking all of our witnesses here today. I know the committee appreciates their testimony and their commitment to improving sports in general across this country.
The stories we've heard over the last few months have been unbelievable. When I hear about the abuse that's taken place, especially child abuse—well, abuse to anyone—to me, it's something we need to move on quickly.
I've been public in my support for a public inquiry, and I support the witnesses here who are calling for that as well.
I wanted to start by asking a bit more about whistle-blowing and the lack of protections that are in place.
We heard today from one of our witnesses that she came forward with information and now is being sued. I know we can't speak specifically to that case, but is there anyone on the panel who can speak to the tactics that are used in a bit more detail—not specifically to the case we heard, but in general? What are tactics that organizations use to hold back whistle-blowers, using the court system and other methods to silence them?
Can anyone speak in a bit more detail about that to the committee?
12:30 p.m.
Former Canadian Women’s National Soccer Team Player and Assistant Coach, As an Individual
I can personally speak to there being certain clauses within contracts that prohibit people from speaking about certain things. As an assistant coach, when I finally did get a contract with the association, there were certain clauses, things like non-disclosure agreements, whereby you couldn't talk about a situation. These are tactics that are used to silence people coming forward, or, when they have spoken, to punish them.
There is also the complicity...or the whole culture of permissiveness that is fear-based. People will not come forward if there is that threat of reprisal. That is an ongoing, cultural, systemic issue. People stay very quiet and aren't willing to risk coming forward to be a whistle-blower.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON
Yes. I have a question for Rachael Denhollander.
You talked about value statements and honest assessment in regard to moving forward and truth and accountability. I was intrigued about the comment you made: “You cannot fix what you will not...diagnose.” Do you see a national inquiry as being one of the mechanisms for diagnosing the challenges we're talking about today?
12:30 p.m.
Attorney and Victim Advocate, As an Individual
Absolutely, and this is for a couple of reasons. One thing you have heard repeatedly from survivors and athletes who have testified today and over the past several months is that the organizations are, by and large, riddled with the same people or groups of people who have been part of the abusive system. To suggest that that leadership is capable of doing an accurate assessment or even has the skill and the knowledge base to be able to look at a structure, a policy change, a practice or a cultural dynamic and understand and identify how that plays into child and athlete abuse is just naïveté in the highest degree.
The people who have been part of the system or, frankly, who just lack the skill sets to be able to do that type of assessment cannot be in the position of accurately diagnosing what's taken place, so we have to get outside of that system, and the national inquiry provides you a way to do that.
Of course, it will need to be set up well. It will need to be set up so that survivors are safe to engage, so that proper survivor protections are in place and so that the team is trauma-informed. That team will need to have the requisite education and knowledge base to be able to understand athlete wellness and corporate structure, and some of these dynamics that we've heard and have recognized are quite complex.
Child abuse and athlete abuse extend far beyond what we think of in our child abuse protection policy. These are complex issues, and you need a team of skilled experts who have access to all of the relevant information, a team that is set up in a way that makes it safe for athletes to come forward. Until that process is done, what you've essentially done is looked at all of these organizations that have decades of bodies left behind them, and said, “We understand that you're part of the problem, but we also think you can fix the problem that you created.” That simply does not work.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Michael Coteau Liberal Don Valley East, ON
Is there any organization out there that you can point to, either in the States or in Canada, that has gone through a process, corrected and made improvements to the system?
12:35 p.m.
Attorney and Victim Advocate, As an Individual
Yes, there are. I have been privileged to help set up these systems on a very broad scale for some of the largest denominations in our country that have very complex governmental systems and entities very similar to athletic organizations. I have also worked with much smaller ones. It really can be done well, and it can be done relatively easily.
As complex as the problems are, the way you get to that is really quite simple. Get the proper contract structures in place and the proper scope set up, and when that is done and done with leadership and survivors who are both headed in the same direction of wanting to do what is right, it really is an intensely collaborative process where everyone is able to come out on the other side so they feel like we now have a path forward.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh
Thank you, Michael.
We're going to go to the third round. We'll see how our time is. The third round would give the Conservatives and Liberals five minutes each, and the NDP and Bloc two and a half minutes each. We'll play with the clock after that, but we'll start with the Conservatives.
I have Ms. Thomas first.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Thank you.
Again, thank you to each of you for coming and being a part of our time here today.
My question is for each and every one of you. It's a bit of a rapid-fire question. You have bravely come to committee and allowed your story to stand. We recognize that we've been able to capture only a glimpse, so, in many ways, it feels like an injustice to you and to the life you've lived.
I want to give you one final opportunity, and that is to make a short statement. Again, I realize that's an injustice, but I want to get through all of you. If you were to say in one to two sentences what it is that you're hoping for from the sport minister what would it be?
I will start with you, Myriam.
April 24th, 2023 / 12:35 p.m.
Olympian and Teacher, As an Individual
I just wish to see this national inquiry started. We really need this national inquiry. There's no other.... We can put plasters or band-aids on problems, but they won't fix the system we're in. Stop waiting. Launching this inquiry will be the best thing the minister can do.
12:35 p.m.
Whistle-blower and Professional Soccer Player, As an Individual
I echo Myriam.
I would also say to start taking steps to have an organization that represents the interests of athletes, so we're not fighting these fights on our own. With that in mind, there's also a need for some sort of support, whether it's so that Myriam has somebody to go to so she can get funding legally, or so we don't have to sit around waiting for Canada Soccer, whenever they feel like getting back to us to give us some.... You know, we're begging them for therapy money, essentially, for the problems they've caused us.
It's those two things, and adding 100% to an inquiry. Start taking steps towards an athlete organization, not that they set up, but that we set up and support legally and with therapy.
12:35 p.m.
Former Canadian Women’s National Soccer Team Player and Assistant Coach, As an Individual
While this transition is going on, it's very unhealthy, so supporting athletes and people involved—it's not just the athletes—financially and psychologically to help stabilize is very important.
I think whistle-blower protection is incredibly important, because these are the people who are really trying to chime in and say there's an issue.
Looking at our legislation towards complicity for the people who are involved, the laws there are very weak. Without a national inquiry, I think there's a risk it's going to be safe-sport washing. It's going to be something, but it won't get to the root of it, and it's only going to create more harm.
12:40 p.m.
Fencing for Change Canada
I echo the statements of the other witnesses here today, although I think it cannot be understated that with every passing day, more children are placed in those environments. More children are experiencing the same things we have and continue to every single day that a national inquiry is not called and we're not taking action. That is unacceptable.
12:40 p.m.
Attorney and Victim Advocate, As an Individual
I would add my voice to these incredible women and athletes who have come to testify.
It is time to take action. It is past time to take action. You, as the leaders of Canada, have a unique ability to say that we are going to move forward, we are going to find the truth, and we are going to do everything we can to protect the next generation. I think you've heard very clearly from those who are part of the system what that needs to look like.
12:40 p.m.
Lawyer, As an Individual
Yes, it's that the minister and the government have the courage to protect all these athletes, including the employee athletes who work for teams and leagues across the country.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Thank you.
I think that concludes my time, so thank you again.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
The Vice-Chair Conservative Kevin Waugh
Thank you.
We go to Mr. Housefather of the Liberal Party.
You have five minutes, please.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
Anthony Housefather Liberal Mount Royal, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you so much to the witnesses for coming forward and for speaking to us today. Your testimony was compelling. It was moving, and I think you highlighted the disequilibrium that exists between the national federations and athletes.
When we talked about the fencing selection process...I know a lot of my colleagues may not be totally aware of how that puts power in the hands of federations and coaches. In my sport, swimming, you don't have that. The top two finishers at Olympic trials automatically make the team, provided they made the Olympic standard.
In so many sports—I'm looking at Rachael for when she was competing in gymnastics—you could finish second in the Olympic trials in the all-around, but you'd be going back into a room and Bela and Marta Karolyi would basically make the decision as to who made the Olympic team. You could be penalized because you didn't go to their training camps, or when Larry Nassar was at their camps and you caused a ruckus, you might not be invited. That happens in way too many sports. In our recommendations, I think we need to deal with that as best we can.
You are all heroes in my book. Thank you.
I want to go to Andrea and Ciara for a moment, on Canada Soccer.
Ciara, you mentioned that the minutes never showed the contract with Canadian Soccer Business being signed. As you might remember, Canada Soccer left those out of the initial minutes that were provided. Then, miraculously, minutes turned up after our meeting that suddenly showed an approval of the contract after the fact. We still know the general secretary of Canada Soccer didn't sign the contract as he was required to. There are a number of issues around the contract.
We have Mr. Reed from Canada Soccer coming next week. In terms of the witnesses who have already appeared from Canada Soccer and in whose testimony you've spotted inconsistencies and inaccuracies, I would like to give you the opportunity to tell us what those were, so we can follow up next week with Mr. Reed.
Andrea, I don't know if you want to go first.
12:40 p.m.
Former Canadian Women’s National Soccer Team Player and Assistant Coach, As an Individual
With regard to the Bob Birarda situation, I know it's Steve Reed, but he was also there during those periods of time. This wasn't just about sexual text messages. This was about much, much more. Sexual text messages are a form of grooming and are incredibly damaging, but this was much more that I personally reported to their independent fact-finder, Anne Chopra, back in the day. For them to continue saying that there was no cover-up and that it was handled appropriately is a major issue. To not acknowledge that, by the leadership, and by Steve Reed to the leadership beyond that and into today, is a very damaging thing. It continues to not give a voice to those people.
To say that he was just sanctioned in some of these public hearings, you ask this question: Well, he has now been banned, but what does that mean? Why did it take until these hearings for them to utter the words that he's suspended now? A police investigation and his being in jail should have been enough. It should have been enough well before that.
As far as the finances are concerned, it's concerning that there's everything about the players asking for transparency in the men's and women's programs, yet it's been unsettling that money has been reported in the past. Things needed to be looked into; that's never happened. Money was not accounted for. It just seems to get buried in the past, yet that culture continues on year after year.