Canadian Heritage Committee on April 24th, 2023

[Rachael Denhollander]

I think Judge Aquilina's ruling was absolutely critical, because it was a values statement. It communicated how much the survivors of Larry's abuse were worth. What you have before you today is also a values question: How much are your children worth?

This is the reality. Every time your athletic organizations are choosing an action, whether that is passivity, whether it is an assessment that is really designed to be a PR stunt, whether it is silencing survivors.... Every time your athletic associations take an action, every time you take an action, you are, in essence, pulling out a scale. On one side of that scale, the athletic associations are placing the priorities that they have. Maybe it's a desire to win, fear of loss of reputation, a desire to protect assets or professional relationships, or a goal those organizations have. Then, on the other side, they are placing the children who are going to pay the price for the choice they make.

Judge Aquilina's ruling was critical, because it sent the message that our children matter and that these survivors matter. I think what you have clearly heard from these athletes and from so many who have testified before is that the athletic organizations that are in charge of athlete and child safety right now are pulling out that same scale. They are saying that their organization and their reputation matter more.

I really appreciate Ms. Neil's answer about how safety really contributes to athletic success. I would like to reframe that question for you a bit, because, again, we have to go back to our core values. When we start with the question of how we can make sure we still win, what we are really saying is that maybe winning is more important than our athletes' safety: “How do we make sure we get to this end goal? And hey, if we can keep kids safe, that's great, too.”

I would submit to you, members of Parliament, that that's the wrong goal to start with. Our question really ought to be, first and foremost, this: “How do we contribute to making sure our children are safe, understanding that safety is also fundamental to athletic success and professional well-being?”

What you have heard before you today is that all of these organizations have engaged in nothing more than PR stunts. It has been a regime change from one toxic system to another toxic system. The assessments and inquiries that have been put before you, where these organizations have said, “Oh no, we understand everything that has gone wrong,” have lacked transparency. They have not involved survivor voices. They have not been set up in a way that makes it safe for survivors to engage and that is actually looking to get to the truth of what's taken place.

My field of professional expertise is institutional transformation, setting up these types of processes so that we can actually find out what's gone wrong. Let's diagnose the complexities of what led to this child abuse and this athlete abuse so that we can make sure it doesn't happen again. This is complex. It involves culture. It involves policy. It involves structure. It involves a lot of things we don't think of as directly tied to child abuse, like how board systems manage their finances and selection processes.

Having a national inquiry that can look into the complexity of those dynamics to accurately diagnose what took place, to accurately identify individuals who are part of that toxic system so that those individuals are no longer in charge of child and athlete safety, is an absolutely critical step. It really starts with that fundamental question, asking what your children are worth. That is what you have to decide today.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I fully share your point of view, Ms. Denhollander.

Ms. McCormack, how can the sport Canada organization ignore the voices being heard in all facets of sport? Do you feel that the answer you've received from Sport Canada and the minister is adequate?

Do you get the impression that all of the inquiries carried out in the private sector, by the independent third parties that are accountable to Sport Canada, are adequate at this time?

[Ciara McCormack]

As someone who has come here twice and broken down while talking about what happened to us, I think it's, you know, shocking, honestly, that there's nothing being done. It feels sometimes disheartening. How many times do we need to keep showing up, and how many times do we need to keep telling all of you? You know, I think for the four of us, it has massively impacted our lives in a really substantial manner.

Yes, I think I don't understand how, just on a human level, you can literally witness the car accidents over and over, all of our stories in all of our sports. It's all the same thing. From that perspective, I think it's been very disappointing in terms of the larger.... I don't understand what's holding back a national inquiry. How can we cheer on our athletes if we're telling you that this is a reality of what it looks like behind every single sport, province and gender, you know?

You just wonder whether she is even watching. Is the Minister of Sport watching? Is the Prime Minister watching? Is whoever is making these decisions watching?

It's very much impacted our lives, far past our sporting careers. It's just so disappointing. I just feel ashamed, honestly, to be a Canadian—ashamed that this is the reality of what it means and of the response to being a Canadian athlete. This is the response to so many of us who have been coming forward for months now, telling you that this is the reality behind the Olympic medals and all this kind of thing. You know, it's—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Ms. McCormack. We have to move on.

Thank you, Mr. Lemire, for the questions.

We'll move now to the New Democratic Party.

Mr. Julian, you have six minutes.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I'm at a loss for words over what you've just told us. It's very profound. We are listening to you and we understand.

We know the pain that you've endured. We hear your powerful voices. Ms. McCormack, when you say we can't continue with the status quo of harm, that is something that I think every member of this committee absolutely agrees with. We are wedded to that idea as well. We have to stop the harm. That's why we've been having these hearings; that's why we continue to hear this profound testimony from each of you. Thank you.

We've heard your voices on a public inquiry. I think that is something that, as a committee, we will be discussing as part of the report that we have to prepare. Personally, I absolutely support the call for a public inquiry.

What has to happen now? What does the federal government need to be doing now with Canada Soccer, Fencing Canada, Boxing Canada or Gymnastics Canada? What are the measures that the federal government needs to put in place now?

These are all organizations funded by the taxpayer. They have basically had carte blanche. They've had a blank cheque to do whatever they want. The astounding, appalling, horrific stories of harm and abuse that continue and are perpetuated obviously show that Sport Canada and the federal government haven't been doing their job.

What would you like to see the sports minister announce this week that would oblige each of these organizations to fill their mandate of not doing harm, protecting the athletes and protecting the public?

[Ciara McCormack]

What is completely lacking—this is from conversations with all of us—is that athlete organizations, these sport NSOs.... As we've all said, we're little specks, and they control the funding, the power and who is getting chosen. I don't think things can change until there is some sort of body that represents our interests and our voice. If they know that we are represented, that we're not trying to play our sport and fight these monsters at the same time, and that there is a collective to be able to....

Myriam is now getting sued by her coach for defamation for going through the sport process. That is coming out of Myriam's pocket, to fight back for basically just doing what she was told to do in the sport system and report maltreatment. If there were an entity....

Nine dollars are going to Canada Soccer to basically have sketchy financial behaviour and also clear cases of abuse. If there were an organization protecting us from those nine dollars that are going to Soccer Canada, with half of that money going to an organization that fights for our rights and makes sure we're okay.... None of us have received therapy from Canada Soccer for what we've been put through. We've had a private person come forward and give us funding to even be able to approach them.

We're so underprotected, underfunded and under-represented, yet the sport system does not happen without our participation. It's the most insane set-up, and it's reflective of what's going on.

That's what needs to happen. There has to be a structural change in the system, an entity that protects our interests and fights for us so that we can just play our sport in a safe environment, enjoy it, not be harmed and not be picking up the pieces years after we are done playing.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Ms. Neil.

[Andrea Neil]

It's fundamental.

To those who are not acting while listening to all that has gone on, what is blocking that action? To listen to what athletes have been speaking about with compassionate ears, with wisdom; to look at things from an empathetic perspective; to discern what is going through a very complex situation takes leadership. It takes moral leadership. It takes compass points. It takes courage.

What is holding that decision back, what fears? When people are shedding tears and have been harmed, not to do something about it immediately is also part of the problem.

My fundamental question, as these organizations are doing all of this, is, “Who has the oversight for them, and therefore, what is blocking the ability to take action?” I don't think that the people who got into this problem are the people who are going to fix it. It's going to take a transformative situation—values-based—to first understand what the purpose of sport is and to always come back to the fundamentals, but I think that fear is holding a lot of this back.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Next is Ms. Mason.

[Emily Mason]

I agree, and I echo the statements of the other witnesses who are here today.

I would say that action is important, but rash action without understanding the full context of the issue would be a mistake. I think it's imperative that there be a public investigation called as soon as possible. How many more voices do we need to hear before the minister takes action? That baffles me.

As Ciara mentioned, mental health support is severely lacking. There is immense trauma that has occurred for so many athletes, and it's going to require immense resources for our community to be able to heal. I'd like to see some of that provided.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Peter.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you.

Next is Madam Da Silva Rondeau.

[Myriam Da Silva Rondeau]

I absolutely agree with my colleagues.

On the side of Emily and the mental health process, we need funds. We need money. We need resources. After two years, I'm still in therapy, and I'm paying, of course. The game plan is helping, because I have two therapists, but I suffered from disassociation for six months, so I can't recall either my Olympic qualification or my Olympic participation. I have no recall of the best memory of my life—as it's supposed to be—so we need...and all that money is paid from my pocket. I need to work to pay for my therapy, so how am I able to work if I'm not able to work...? I have to go to work to earn money to pay for therapy, but it's super hard to go to work because I was in a depression stage for so long.

Yes, we need help on that, please, and we need to stop people inside the federation from using our complaints against us in the judicial department in our province. On what we're saying, all the complaints we're telling you about, we're using the mechanisms you put in place. The government put mechanisms in place and put a complaint process in place, but when it's used, it can be used against us, and we don't have the same money power. You have to understand that: I don't have the same power as people in my federation who are paid, who are actual employees of this federation and receive a proper salary. Athletes are not employees of their federation.

I'm happy to see that at Hockey Canada they are employees. They are the luckiest ones, yet you see abuse in that federation, and it is considering them athlete employees. Imagine, for the rest of us who are not even considered employees of the federation, how we are treated. We don't even have this respect of being considered an employee, but it's because of us that the system is working.

It's not working.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

We can come back to that.

[Myriam Da Silva Rondeau]

Yes—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

We'll come back to that, okay?

[Myriam Da Silva Rondeau]

—so please help.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Peter.

Now we'll have the second round: five minutes each for the Conservatives and Liberals and two and a half minutes each for the Bloc and the NDP.

We'll start with Ms. Thomas of the Conservatives for five minutes.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

To the witnesses, thank you for being here. Thank you for being brave, for showing courage and for leading a tremendous effort. Thank you.

My first question is going to be for Ms. Denhollander.

In your opening statement, you discussed policy. You said something along the lines of it being only as good as the motivation to actually make sure that the policy is adhered to. Clearly, we need leaders who are going to step up and be willing to make sure that policy is in fact abided by. Without that motivation, it's nothing more than a piece of paper, some writing and perhaps a signature.

My question for you is that when it comes to the honest and transparent system you were talking about, and that is needed, I'm wondering if you can break that down a bit further in terms of what that might look like in order to protect players and their families.

[Rachael Denhollander]

It really begins with a well-done national inquiry, and this is why. This is what I tell my children: There are two reasons you can choose to do what's right. You can choose to do what's right because you care about the people who will pay the consequences if you don't, or you can choose to do what's right because you are afraid of the consequences. The goal is that we have organizations and leaders who want to do what's right because they care about the athletes and the children under their protection, but that is not what we have right now. The only thing that remains at this point in time is motivation out of fear of consequences, knowing that, if we do not do this right, the truth is going to be told about what we have done if we silence survivors. If we stand on behalf of abusers, if we fail to follow our policy, the truth is going to be told.

The most powerful thing members of Parliament can do right now is stand up and say, “We are going to tell the truth, and if you have not done this right, we are going to tell the truth.” Setting up a national inquiry that has the proper survivor protections in place can be done in a way that is trauma-informed and that protects survivors' identities. We talk about personal identifying information, or PII. It can be set up in a way that protects survivor PII and that is a collaborative process with the survivor community and with members of Parliament, where everyone is moving together in the same direction.

Let's do the right thing. Let's find out how we can keep our children safe. Let's work together to tell the truth. A well-done inquiry or independent investigation is a truly collaborative process, because everyone is headed in the same direction of doing what is right. It's set up with the proper survivor protections in place. It is set up so that all information that is relevant is accessible and can be told, so that we are truly pursuing transparency and accountability, and it is set up in a way that is very robust, that can look at the culture of the organization as well as policy and structure breakdowns, because we tend to find all three things.

When you have an organization that is run by individuals who are not geared towards child safety, oftentimes those organizations are set up in a way that the structure allows for communication silos, power imbalances or other corporate structural deficiencies that make it possible to ignore red flags and to cover up child abuse. You need a very robust inquiry that is going to look at all of those dynamics, is set up in a way that can truly access and report on all relevant information and is done with the proper survivor protections in place.

This can be done. I do it all the time. When everyone is headed in the same direction of telling the truth and working together to protect the next generation, a national inquiry or an independent investigation is not an antagonistic process. It's very collaborative, because everyone is moving towards protecting the next generation and bringing our community to heal from what has been done.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Ms. Denhollander, thank you for your explanation and for giving us points to consider. They're much appreciated. I think just the experience with which you speak, as someone who has led these processes, is very much taken to heart, so thank you.

I'm going to direct my next question to Ms. Neil.

One of the things you have stated is that we need a national code that applies to all of our sports federations. I'm curious as to what that would look like. Again, the code is one thing; the enforcement of said code is another. I'm curious as to how you would see that play out.

[Andrea Neil]

Absolutely. It's very wise.

I think we can look to other countries, like we've just brought in this beautiful American example of what's happened to help navigate through these challenging times. If you look at the governance code in England for their high-performance and grassroots sporting organizations, they have a common governance code, where the government is very much involved, and it spreads down through the organizations.

I think it's a great starting point to begin to study what others have done and how they have been called to action from certain harms or certain situations that have come up in the past. I think we're trying to find our way through a very confusing situation, yet we can look to other examples.

Policies can be flexibly done, and education programs can be flexibly done, but we need to challenge ourselves as leaders and influencers of others. It's very much ethics and morals. You can add policies, but we need to look inside ourselves as leaders and at the impact we have in a positive way and what stands in the way of showing up with courage. I think that's the fundamental starting place.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Ms. Neil.

We'll move on to the Liberals and Lisa Hepfner for five minutes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I would also like to extend my thanks to all the witnesses for their really compelling and important testimony here today.

I'd like to follow on in that same vein of finding out what other jurisdictions have done well.

I'd like to go to you, Ms. Denhollander. Are there any advancements that have been made in the U.S. to help improve the culture of sport there that we can learn from here in Canada?