Canadian Heritage Committee on May 18th, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Mrs. Thomas.

We'll move now to the Liberal Party and Lisa Hepfner.

Go ahead, Lisa.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank our guest, Ms. Hogan, for being here to answer our questions today.

I would like to ask about the connecting families program. This is a program that provides low-income families and seniors with high-speed Internet packages for $20 a month. You focus on affordability in your report, but this program wasn't included. I would like to know why, if I could.

[Karen Hogan]

You're correct that it's not a program we included in our audit. It's my understanding that it's a fairly recent program. It really is about people applying and being eligible.

We focused on where the majority of the money under the connectivity strategy was. It is focused on trying to get the infrastructure up to rural and remote communities and first nations communities, and then tackling other issues like quality and affordability. It wasn't scoped in because we were focused on the larger bucket of funding related to access.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

As you said, it's a more recent program, and that brings up an interesting point. I note that the audit covers the time period from July 2018 to January 2023, but it only has 2021 connectivity data. Could you explain that for us, please?

[Karen Hogan]

That was the only data available. We went to Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada and the CRTC and asked them for the latest data they had on access. They only had 2021 data. That's my understanding. Actually, in preparation for this hearing, I inquired about whether the 2022 data was available. I believe they have now received it from all the Internet service providers and are working their way through it. Usually they provide updated figures in the fall of a year.

We were only able to audit what information the government had on hand at the time of our audit.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Okay. The focus of the audit was to determine whether the Government of Canada has improved access to affordable and high-speed Internet in rural and remote regions of the country. Would you say there has been improvement?

[Karen Hogan]

Yes, I would say that. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, there has been improvement since our 2018 report on connectivity all across the country, but there still is a large digital divide when you compare urban centres with rural and remote areas. Four out of 10 households don't have access to high-speed Internet, and then that grows to six out of 10 when you look at indigenous services. While progress continues every year—

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Clearly, it shows there's more to do.

[Karen Hogan]

Yes.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

However, would you say or would you agree that the government surpassed the goals that it set for 2021, its connectivity goals?

[Karen Hogan]

I believe the goal in the strategy was to connect 90% of Canadians by 2021. That goal was achieved. What that goal masks, however, is that there is a divide when you pull out rural and remote communities and indigenous communities. In the urban centres, it's over 99%, so while the goal was met, there's a lot of work left to be done.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Right. Since 2021 the total number of households connected in rural Canada increased from 62% to 69%. Given the recent global pandemic and the short period of time, would you say that this is a significant increase?

[Karen Hogan]

When I look at the fact that across the country, 1.4 million households are still underserved or not served at all, that's a lot of Canadians. To put it into context, that's like every single person who lives in the city of Montreal does not have access to the Internet. It's a lot of people.

When you think about how the pandemic shifted so much of society to an online mode, the country should strive to try to meet its goals sooner and faster. It's a long time to wait till 2030 to have access to the Internet to do your banking or to shop.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

You would say that no, you don't think it's a significant increase in the connectivity of rural Canada. You would like to see more. You wouldn't consider it significant. I think that is what I get from your answer.

Connectivity in indigenous households has increased by 5% since 2021. I think that's the more recent data. Does that give you hope, at least, that the numbers are going in the right direction?

[Karen Hogan]

I will always be pleased when the numbers go in the right direction. I just encourage the government to reach its goal faster.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

I would note that since 2015, about 2.2 million Canadian households have received access to better and faster Internet.

On the Government of Canada's website for the national strategy to connect all Canadians, by the end of 2022, 93.5% of Canadians were connected to high-speed Internet in comparison to only 79% of Canadians in 2014.

Just to put those numbers into perspective, do you think it is significant progress to go from 70% to 93.5% of Canadians who are connected?

[Karen Hogan]

I do think that's sizable progress, but it still leaves underserved the most vulnerable and underserved.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Ms. Hogan.

Thank you, Ms. Hepfner.

There was discussion about extending to six o'clock. We don't seem to have unanimous agreement, but we'll try to get as close as we can to 5:30, or a couple of minutes over, depending on our rounds, if you don't mind.

We'll have six minutes now for Mr. Champoux.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Hogan and Mr. Hannoush, thank you for being here with us today and offering to meet with us to discuss your report. We're grateful to you, since not every witness we invite accepts coming to see us so gracefully.

I find all of your recommendations extremely interesting, but some of them stand out a bit more, I think.

We all went through a pandemic that changed the way we see things. It also made us aware of the fact that some services are essential. We had an inkling, but it hit home especially hard during the pandemic.

Before the pandemic, the committee led studies on the subject of connectivity in Quebec and Canada. It sounded the alarm because there was almost no Internet connectivity or cell phone service offered in remote areas, which was escalating into a public safety issue, because people were cancelling their landlines and services were increasingly offered through cell phones or the Internet. We were already arguing that a high-speed Internet connection should be considered an essential service, which the government finally recognized.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm sure you'll agree with me that once it was recognized, the walk had to follow the talk. If we decide it's an essential service, we have to make sure it's offered to the entire population. I know that major challenges are involved with connecting people to a decent Internet service in very remote areas and parts of the country that are hard to access with technology. However, we know of existing technologies that could be used to connect people in those areas.

What I'm getting at are the government's phased goals to connect remote areas. The government set 2030 as the ultimate goal to connect 100% of Canadians. However, one point in your recommendations stood out to me and caught my interest, which was the need to assess whether the target speed of 50/10 Mbps still make sense. We are in 2023, and I'm not sure that a speed of 50/10 Mbps can currently be considered high-speed Internet, because needs are changing with lightning speed.

So, are the goals for 2026 and 2030 realistic? Why not immediately revise them, so that people who get connected with unsatisfactory or inadequate connection speeds don't have to wait another 5, 8 or 10 years to get updated technology and keep pace? Have you had an opportunity to think more deeply on the matter?

[Karen Hogan]

If we made a recommendation to determine whether the target speed of 50/10 Mbps could still be considered high-speed in 2030, it was because we were asking ourselves the question. In the past, speeds went up about every 10 years, going from 2G to 3G, then 4G. That's why we thought it necessary to recommend that the government reconsider its targets.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I don't want to force you to pull a fast one on the government—that's our job—, but don't you think it lacked vision in 2019 when setting the target of 50/10 Mbps? Even if that was considered high-speed at that time, we knew the streams would be much bigger 10 years later, when they reached their connection targets, more or less. Wasn't that a lazy target?

[Karen Hogan]

In 2018, we recommended that the government develop a strategy, a target and a deadline to reach it. I'm pleased that a strategy was developed and that the target was included.

We now need to consider how much the target needs improvement. Currently, we see in the programs or the budget that all programs need to be adaptable. I think it will take time to see if the programs really are adaptable and if everyone can increase the speed if the target changes. Right now, however, I can only hold the government to account for the current target.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I don't have much time left, but earlier, you said something very interesting about the work, and Ottawa's collaboration with the provinces and with Quebec.

My colleague from Abitibi—Témiscamingue, Mr. Lemire, sits on this committee sometimes, in addition to being a member of the Standing Committee on Industry and Technology. He and I pushed hard to get Ottawa to transfer its responsibilities to Quebec, which already had a clearer vision of the needs in Quebec. This was done. The funding and responsibility to ensure Internet connectivity across Quebec, including in remote regions, were transferred.

In your opinion, should the government develop that strategy further? Should it give the provinces the money and responsibility, since they know more about their jurisdiction and their real needs, and only provide oversight? Do you think that's the right approach?

[Karen Hogan]

In my opinion, that's a discussion that the federal government should have with each province. Our audit demonstrated that, among other things, where there was good collaboration, the administrative burden for individuals and companies submitting applications was reduced. Improving and accelerating access to those providers improves connectivity.