Canadian Heritage Committee on May 18th, 2023

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

I don't mean to brag about Quebec, but everyone knows that it's the best. I must say that Quebec has just about reached its goals, with just a few percentage points to go. While Canada is aiming for connectivity in 2030, Quebec is nearly there already. You'll be able to put that in your next audit.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Mr. Champoux.

We'll go now to the New Democratic Party and Mr. Julian for six minutes.

Peter, go ahead.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Hogan, thank you for coming. I'm speaking to you from Canada's west coast, so I hope my connection will be good.

As a follow-up to Mr. Champoux's questions, did you find differences in connectivity between francophone and anglophone communities? Is that something you looked at during your examination?

[Karen Hogan]

I encourage you to visit our web site. You'll find the map of Canada and statistics on connectivity per province. We didn't examine the differences between francophone and anglophone communities, in terms of language. Rather, we looked at the differences between the provinces and territories.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Which province in Canada, including the Quebec nation, has the highest connectivity rate? Which province or territory has the lowest connectivity rate?

[Karen Hogan]

Are you referring to the connectivity rate in all areas or only urban areas?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Connectivity is mainly an issue in rural regions and indigenous communities. In that regard, which regions are doing well and which are doing less well?

[Karen Hogan]

It's important to note that there are rural and remote regions in all the provinces and territories. If I look at the map on our web site, it shows that the regions of Canada where rural and remote communities have the lowest connectivity rate are in the Northwest Territories, Yukon and Nunavut. In remote areas of Nunavut, communities have no access to high-speed Internet.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Which rural regions have the highest connectivity?

[Karen Hogan]

Based on our map, the rural regions with the highest connectivity rate are in Prince Edward Island, followed by New Brunswick.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

What about provinces in western Canada?

[Karen Hogan]

Would you like me to give the percentage for each province? Would that help you?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

No, that's not necessary.

[Karen Hogan]

British Columbia is really the province where rural and remote communities have the highest connectivity rate.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Okay. That's obviously what I was hoping to hear, since I know that the provincial government in British Columbia has been working hard to improve connectivity. The types of programs put in place can have a big impact in the provinces, and as you so clearly indicated, British Columbia is among the provinces with the highest connectivity as a result of programs put in place. If I may make a partisan comment, I would point out that it was an NDP government that put those programs in place.

Now, I want to turn to the government's response and the statement from the minister after you issued your report. The Government of Canada—this is from Minister Hutchings—in a statement said the following, “The Government of Canada has made available over $7.6 billion to expand access to high-speed Internet in underserved areas”.

I'm looking at the figures from your report, and as you mentioned earlier, you've seen investments of $949 million in terms of what is actually spent. In your study of the money invested that has served to expand access to high-speed Internet, do you see $7.6 billion as a credible figure, or is it your experience that a little shy of $1 billion in actual investments has helped expand access to high-speed Internet?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm not sure I know where the minister received her numbers. What we did note in our audit report is that around $8 billion was committed over several budgets and several announcements. That's why we focused on how much was available. That $8 billion is over a longer period of time. Up until 2023, $2.4 billion of those funds was available to be spent. It's only 40% of it that has been spent.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

That's where you come to the $949 million. The minister is reaching for the skies in her speaking notes, but the actual money invested on the ground is just a little over 10%, which is shocking given the discrepancy for rural and indigenous communities, particularly. In the next round, I'm going to ask you about the consequences of that. It's fair to say that the government has had a lot of talk and no action when it comes to expanding the access of rural Canadians and indigenous communities to high-speed Internet.

My final question for this round is around the issue of affordability.

In terms of tracking how much it costs in each of these communities, would you say that you know the best practices in costing, either through a province or through other programs in place, so that it's about affordable access to high-speed Internet in communities? What is the best practice there?

[Karen Hogan]

I just want to make sure I understand your question. Are you asking me about the best practice in determining what would be an affordable price for high-speed Internet?

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

In terms of evaluating prices across the country, what example of a best practice has led to affordable high-speed Internet in some communities? Which province or territory has done the best in that regard?

[Karen Hogan]

Unfortunately, I don't look at what the provinces and territories do; I can only look at what the federal government has done. In the connectivity strategy, the federal government has a target linked to affordability that's only based on the price of the service, so they'll do comparisons across the country or with other international prices.

In my view, that's missing half the story, because if a household can't afford Internet, you're not going to increase connectivity since it's beyond their means. You need to track household incomes and the link between them and the price of the service. The OECD recognizes that it should be done, and the department acknowledges that there's a link, but they're not gathering data around household incomes.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Ms. Hogan, and thank you, Peter.

We'll move on to the second round. We'll start with Martin Shields. It's a five-minute round.

Please go ahead, Martin.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Hogan, I have a question for you. There's a reference to maps and the national broadband Internet service map. There was some reference that they're not accurate in the sense of what is covered and what is not covered. Do you remember your review of that?

[Karen Hogan]

I will see if Sami wants to add, but I will start.

There is a connectivity map on the Government of Canada website that any Canadian can access, and you can see what areas of the country have high-speed Internet and mobile services. The issue with it is that it comes from service providers. There's not a lot of vetting on the accuracy of it, and when the maps are updated, stakeholders are informing the department about inaccuracies.

We've made a few recommendations around ensuring that the information is up to date and accurate. It's old. We saw that it was out of date by almost 20 months or so. What that means is that, if you're going to submit a proposal to help increase accessibility in an area but it looks like on the map it already has connectivity, you might not bid in that area or put a project forward in that area. The reverse might be true too. It's important to have accurate information for proper decision-making.

[Martin Shields, Conservative, Bow River, AB]

That could relate to service in rural and lower-served areas not increasing, then.

[Karen Hogan]

If it looks on the map like they already have connectivity and they in fact do not, then yes, that could result in missed opportunities for some areas that truly need connectivity.