Canadian Heritage Committee on May 18th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Thanks, Peter. If that's the case, and the interpreters are saying that you can't hear me very well and that I'm going in and out, I will be happy to do that. I wasn't sure what my connection was like.

Can we hear from the clerk whether my connection is poor? I will cede the—

[The Clerk]

With the connection, there's a lot of choppiness. There's a lot of interruption in the video. The audio doesn't seem too bad, but the video is dropping in and out. That is usually a good indicator that the audio is soon to follow.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

All right.

What I will say to the committee is I will let Kevin chair the rest of this meeting, as he kindly offered to do, and I will drop out of the committee.

[Kevin Waugh, Conservative, Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK]

Okay, Ms. Fry. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Hedy Fry]

Is that cool with everybody?

Kevin, thank you very much.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Ms. Fry.

Are we as clear as mud, then, on the Monday when we come back? We will have guests for the first hour, and in the second hour we'll do committee business.

Go ahead, Mr. Champoux.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. Chair, at the end of the last meeting, my colleague Mr. Lemire read a motion. It has not been voted on yet, but I think that's a mere formality. Before we dedicate all the time we have left today to witnesses, I would like us to finish with it and pass the motion or, at the very least, vote on it.

Everyone seems to agree that I should reread the motion so we can debate it if needed, although we already did that on Monday. Here's the text of the motion:

That, in the context of the study on safe sports in Canada, the Committee demands that Gymnastics Canada or former members of the board—William Thompson, Jack Payne, or Lynne Smith—provide a copy of the internal report conducted by Shearer Parnega, completed around May 2018, regarding the toxic environment within Gymnastics Canada. The Committee also requests a copy of Gymnastics Canada's statement upon the resignation of Executive Director Peter Nichol and High-Performance Director Karl Balish; these documents should be sent to the Committee Clerk no later than 4:00 p.m. ET on Thursday, May 18, 2023.

I think I'll remove that last part of the motion, because May 18th is today. We'll give them a few more hours. I'll change the end of our motion to give them until next week.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Let's say Thursday, May 25, 2023.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

The last sentence would therefore read:

these documents should be sent to the Committee Clerk no later than 4:00 p.m. ET on Thursday, May 25, 2023.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Are all agreed on this?

(Motion agreed to)

Fine. Thank you.

Now we'll move on to our two guests here. We have report 2 of the Auditor General of Canada on connectivity in rural, remote and maybe even urban centres, as we found out here today.

Let's welcome the opening remarks.

Thank you, officials.

Karen Hogan, you will have the floor for five minutes. Sami Hannoush is with you here today at the Canadian heritage committee.

The floor is yours, Ms. Hogan.

[Karen Hogan, Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for this opportunity to discuss our report on connectivity in rural and remote areas, which was tabled in the House of Commons on March 27.

I would like to acknowledge that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Joining me today is Sami Hannoush, the principal who was responsible for the audit.

In this audit we looked at whether Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada and the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission had improved the accessibility, affordability and quality of high-speed Internet and mobile cellular connectivity for Canadians in rural and remote areas.

At a time when so much takes place online, it is critical for all Canadians to have access to reliable and affordable high-speed Internet and mobile cellular services. This is a matter of inclusion. When services are of poor quality or are unaffordable or unavailable, people are effectively excluded from participating fully and equally in many aspects of life today. This includes participating in the digital economy; accessing online education, banking, medical care and government services; and working remotely.

We found that overall, access to Internet and mobile cellular services has improved across the country since our last audit in 2018. However, the federal government's strategy has yet to deliver results for many rural and remote communities and first nations reserves. Internet connectivity in rural and remote areas remains below 60%, and below 43% on first nations reserves.

We also found delays in approving projects that were meant to bring services to rural and remote areas. For example, final approvals under the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission Broadband Fund took an average of almost 2 years. Delays mean that 1.4 million households who are already underserved or not served at all are still waiting to be connected.

Access to services is not just about having the infrastructure in place to connect households, businesses, and institutions. It's also about the affordability and reliability of the services. We found, however, that the two organizations attract only some dimensions of the affordability and quality of services. For example, they considered pricing as part of affordability, but did not consider household income. If the price of service is beyond a household's means, then connectivity will not improve, and some people will remain excluded.

These findings emphasize the persistent digital divide between people living in urban areas and people living on First Nations reserves and in rural and remote communities. Being connected is no longer a luxury, but an essential service. The government needs to take action so that there is affordable, reliable, high-speed connectivity coverage for Canadians in all areas of the country.

This concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you, Ms. Hogan. That was right on time.

We'll start with a six-minute first round with the Conservatives.

Go ahead, Mrs. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you.

Chair, before asking my questions, I just want to give notice that we are tabling a motion today with regard to a study on the changes made to the Canadian passport. This motion, of course, will be moved at a different time, but it reads:

That the committee immediately undertake a study regarding the recently announced changes to the Canadian passport; in particular the decision by the government to remove images that reflected Canadian culture and history; that the Minister of Heritage be invited to appear as part of this study; that this study consist of 3 meetings; that witness lists be due within 5 days of the adoption of this motion; and that the committee report its findings and recommendations to the House.

I acknowledge that it is not part of the business today, so I do not wish to move it, but I do wish to give notice.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Kevin Waugh]

Thank you very much.

Now you have six minutes. You're first in the opening round.

Away you go, Mrs. Thomas.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Hogan, thank you so much for taking the time to be here today and for initiating a letter saying that you would be pleased to come should we invite you. Of course, we invited you, so it's nice to have you at the table.

I'm curious. When I read the report, I saw that about 26% of the funds from the CRTC have been given out. That leaves a whole whack of cash still sitting there. Why is that?

[Karen Hogan]

I think it's important to note the period of time of our audit. Our audit started in July 2018 and covered all the way until January 2023.

Over that time, while there were a lot of funding commitments in many budgets towards rural connectivity, there was about $2.4 billion available for spending. As you pointed out, we noted that only 40% of that had been spent by January 2023.

The reason it was so slow to go out the door was the length of time it took for the CRTC and Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada to approve proposals for programs. For example, the CRTC said it should take about 10 months to look at a project, approve it and award funding, and it took almost two years. It's that length of time that I believe caused delays in funding going out the door, and hence in projects advancing and Canadians having access to Internet.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

There are two pots of money. There's one with Industry Canada and one with the CRTC. Both are meant to help with connectivity issues across this country.

In your report, you outlined that these departments don't seem to be talking to one another. There's not a coordinated effort in how these funds are being rolled out the door, but also in how applications are being assessed and then granted.

Can you comment on that?

[Karen Hogan]

Many departments are involved in some of the funding, Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada being the main one with the CRTC. We saw a really good coordination between the departments, including the Canada Revenue Agency, which has a tax credit, and Indigenous Services Canada, which funds other programs. It was really about the slowness in approving projects.

It was also about the need to coordinate with provinces. We found that when a province had Internet or mobile programs, the federal government did its best to coordinate with them. That, again, caused some slowness in funding going out the door.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Is there a need for there to be multiple departments overseeing different funding pockets, or could there be one fund created that is responsible for rolling out this program with regard to increasing connectivity across the country, in particular in rural and remote areas?

[Karen Hogan]

That question would be one to ask the government. There was a bit of a policy choice when the connectivity strategy was created in 2019 as to who would be responsible for the funding initiatives that were then included in the connectivity strategy.

All I can tell you is that it wasn't designated as a horizontal program. We did see some good coordination with all of the departments involved, but they were slow at approving proposals.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Would your recommendation be, then, that this continue to be split, or would you see value in bringing it together and having it under one department?

[Karen Hogan]

I think it's a question of how the initiatives want to be run. When you want to target initiatives in indigenous communities, Indigenous Services Canada is likely the best party, with its knowledge and connections already on the ground.

That's a decision the government makes. I simply look at whether they roll it out effectively and efficiently, and here, there could be opportunities for improvement.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

It's interesting that you mention that.

In your report, you pointed out that fewer than 50% of those in remote areas, particularly indigenous communities, have access to minimum speed Internet. That's just minimum speed Internet.

You talked about the fact that it's impacting everything from education to access to telehealth to access to commerce and the new public square, which is engagement online. How can that be improved? At the end of the day, if we truly want to pursue reconciliation, which I believe as a country we do, there is no reconciliation without economic reconciliation. These folks need to be included in the opportunities that the Internet provides.

[Karen Hogan]

I couldn't agree with you more that we need to ensure as a country that indigenous communities are involved in matters that affect them.

What we did find here is that six out of 10 households, as you pointed out, do not have access to high-speed Internet, or what we define today as high-speed Internet. By 2030, we don't know if the current speed will be considered high-speed. Actually, one of the recommendations we gave to the government is that they need to look at that.

The main buckets of money around getting infrastructure to rural and remote communities or indigenous communities come from the main departments that are here. I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that it's not just about getting the equipment there. It's also about making sure that it's affordable. Affordability needs to look at the income of households. That's where I think the government is missing half the picture.

[Rachael Thomas, Conservative, Lethbridge, AB]

Ms. Hogan, thank you.