Evidence of meeting #93 for Canadian Heritage in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbc.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Geneviève Desjardins

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you for listening to the voices around this table and for taking them into consideration and reconsideration. Thank you for allowing this subamendment to stand.

The truth is that my colleague Mr. Waugh moved the subamendment, and therefore I believe that by default the floor is his, because all of the points that have been stated so far have been points of order. We have not actually returned to debate on the subamendment.

Out of respect for my colleague Kevin Waugh, I would cede the floor to him, and I would just note that I am next on the speaking list.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

All right. That's after Mr. Waugh.

Mr. Waugh, we're going to the subamendment. You have the floor.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Waugh Conservative Saskatoon—Grasswood, SK

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Tensions can be high on any committee, but I am going to give you praise for allowing me to speak first and saying that I did have Meta involved. You did see that and you reconsidered, which I appreciate very much.

All I'm trying to do with this subamendment is bring everybody together. Some people want social media here, and I hear that. Some want CBC, some want the ombudsman and some want journalistic standards: I agree with everybody. That was my effort today: to listen to others around the table and to compromise. That's what I was trying to do, whether it's going to be successful or not.

I used the analogy of the CBC because of the $1.4-billion subsidy they are getting yearly. Then I used Meta and others, because they are receiving over $1 billion in ads from several parties and several government agencies. That was the intent, Madam Chair, if you don't mind, of my subamendment: to bring everyone together. Let's hear all of them.

I thank you for reconsidering and bringing my subamendment forward, because that's all I was trying to do. We've heard CBC and social media—Meta—and we're trying to bring them here to have a full understanding of what is going on in the news agencies in our country.

Thank you.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you, Kevin.

Ms. Thomas is next.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

With regard to my colleague Kevin Waugh and the subamendment that has been offered, notably the big change here, of course, by this point in the game, is that we have Peter Julian in his amendment, Meta, and—

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

On a point of order, Madam Chair, Mrs. Thomas is a very experienced committee member. I let her be degrading twice, but the correct characterization, as for any member around this table, would be “Mr. Julian”. I would hold Mrs. Thomas to being respectful to all members of this committee.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I didn't.... Okay.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Mrs. Thomas, please refer to Mr. Julian.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Yes. My apologies. I was certainly not meaning any ill intent. I'm happy to call him Mr. Julian.

Mr. Julian, would you forgive me for that?

12:10 p.m.

An hon. member

Yes, he will.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Genuinely, I'm sorry. I wasn't meaning to....

Through the chair, I'm happy to take responsibility for that. That certainly wasn't my intent.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Yes, but please remember to speak through the chair.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

For sure.

Again, through the chair, I would ask Mr. Julian if he would be willing to extend forgiveness because it was certainly not my intent to cause any harm.

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Go ahead, Mr. Julian.

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Peter Julian NDP New Westminster—Burnaby, BC

Of course, Madame Chair.

I appreciate....

12:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Thank you.

Now go ahead, Mrs. Thomas. Finish your thought.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Thank you.

Mr. Julian moved an amendment to the original motion. His amendment expanded it to include Meta and Google, and now we have subamended it to put the head of the CBC, Catherine Tait, back into it.

Arguably, we've now expanded the scope of this study quite significantly. The chair has ruled it in order, and so it's the motion as amended, and then as subamended, that we're discussing, and it has been permitted to stand.

My concern is that this committee is overstepping its boundaries in terms of what its scope of study should be. We have the ability, and even the mandate, to hold the CBC to account because it is the public broadcaster of Canada. It is paid for solely by public dollars, and it is the responsibility of the House, then, to hold the CBC to account.

To hold the CBC to account is different from telling the CBC what to report. Those are very different. The way we hold it to account is by inviting witnesses to come to this committee and asking them questions, and for those individuals to then provide responses.

To bring Ms. Tait is absolutely essential, because she is the head of that organization. In fact, she just recently had her contract extended for an additional 18 months. Clearly, then, some confidence has been demonstrated toward Ms. Tait, and her organization, in the news broadcast, is making some decisions that are quite alarming to a number of members here at this table and, more importantly, to members of the Canadian public.

I would like to highlight my main concern in all of this when it comes Ms. Tait and the way that she is choosing to lead the CBC, because I do think that there are some things that deserve the utmost consideration here at this committee . That is why it is so important that she not be omitted from this need for study.

Ms. Tait, the head of the CBC, recently published an article, on October 18, talking about how trust in journalism is diminishing, and therefore it is incumbent upon journalists to report in a way that is fact-based. In this article, she uses the phrase, “fact-based reporting” over and over and over again. She talks about how the news needs to be accurately reported.

What I find interesting, though, is that she came out with that article only after the CBC actually ran with a number of falsehoods in their articles, so I would have to ask, what about these facts? What about the fact that hundreds of people were slaughtered in the night? What about the fact that 40 babies were beheaded? What about the fact that women were killed, raped and paraded through the streets? What about those facts? What about the fact that since 2002, Canada has listed Hamas as a terrorist organization?

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

Ms. Thomas, I think we would remember that we're speaking to Mr. Waugh's subamendment and not to the main motion. I think Mr. Waugh's subamendment has asked Ms. Tait to come and appear before us and I think Mr. Waugh's subamendment has said that Meta and Google should appear because this committee has a mandate to review government expenditures, so are you speaking to the subamendment—for the subamendment, against the subamendment—or are you speaking to the main motion?

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I'm sorry, Madam Chair, but what was the nature of the subamendment that we moved?

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I don't know. It's in front of you, Ms. Thomas.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

I understand it, according to my perception, but I'm curious as to how you, the chair, might interpret it.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

I am trying to understand, Ms. Thomas, whether you are debating the subamendment or whether you are speaking to the main motion, because the subamendment is pretty clear on its reasons for wanting to look at Meta. It talks about reviewing government expenditures. It's pretty clear about and having Ms. Tait arrive and speak to us for two hours instead of one. It's pretty clear about asking George Achi and the ombudsman to come. It's pretty clear on all of those things, so I don't understand your points.

Are you speaking for or against the subamendment? I would like us to focus, please, on the subamendment. Thank you.

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Madam Chair, the main focus of the subamendment that has been moved by Mr. Waugh is to add Ms. Tait as a witness.

12:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Hedy Fry

So you're agreeing with the subamendment? Is that it?

12:15 p.m.

Conservative

Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB

Madam Chair, my entire statement had to do with Ms. Tait and the importance of bringing her to this committee, so I'm baffled as to the confusion.

Could you please help me understand so that I can clarify?