Evidence of meeting #10 for Canadian Heritage in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was content.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
David Myles Liberal Fredericton—Oromocto, NB
Do we still have time?
Tim, did you want to ask something?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Let me first welcome Tim Louis back to this committee.
It's always good to see you here, sir.
Liberal
Tim Louis Liberal Kitchener—Conestoga, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair. It's good to be back.
In addition to Mr. Myles being an artist and a musician, so am I. This is an important conversation, and I appreciate this.
I would continue with Mr. Sutherland for a quick question. I speak with artists on a regular basis. I hear from their organizations, and as recently as a couple of weeks ago, it was the Songwriters Association of Canada. They have concerns about how AI will affect their livelihoods and their artistic integrity.
These are important conversations, but some of the companies we're talking about are bigger than countries. How can countries collaborate with each other, with other international partners pushing for global standards on AI transparency and licensing, and maybe specifically organizations like the World Intellectual Property Organization? Are conversations like that happening now?
Entertainment Lawyer and Artist Manager, As an Individual
I think that to some extent everyone is aware of it. It's moving so quickly, and I think that's hard. To answer your question, especially for the Songwriters Association, again, if you want to think about it, Mozart figured out how to commercialize his music. That was in the 1600s, and you know what, from there, everyone figured out how to commercialize it.
Where should our focus be? Are we going to try to attack the AI companies and try to regulate our way out of it? I mean, that's crazy. Or are we just going to say, look, we value the creative source and ask what we can do to help songwriters, to use your example?
How can we help songwriters? Well, they need time to create. They need access. In my experience, a lot of the songwriters are also performers. That's what I see. They need the ability to go out there and play their music. They need to have places to play. They need to have other artists to collaborate with. That's how we're going to beat it. I don't think the international organization and co-operation.... I mean, the funny part is that artists are their own international co-operation organization.
Again, I'm just using the example of the artists I work with, like Mustafa. He's in London hanging out with Dua Lipa, because she loves his music. There's a natural inclination for co-writing. Feist writes a song for Joe Jonas because he likes her style.
I think the international co-operation is that the artists are out there interacting with each other.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Thank you.
Before I go on, I just wanted to advise all members that today is the birthday of our clerk, if you want to give him a little round of applause.
October 29th, 2025 / 6:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
That was just to put him on the spot.
Further, we do not have time for another full round. I'd like to ask members whether we want another shorter questioning round.
Does anybody have any suggestions? Shall we finish the meeting or have a shorter round?
Sorry, I didn't hear that.
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Very well.
Is everybody okay with a shorter round?
We'll do Conservatives for three minutes, and then three minutes and two minutes. Does that work?
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
I'm going to move my motion at the end of this meeting. Out of respect for other folks, I would give them the opportunity to ask their questions first. Then the final round can be mine.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Thank you for the collaboration.
I have Mr. Al Soud next, but he's not here.
Mr. Ntumba, do you want to take the next question?
Liberal
Bienvenu-Olivier Ntumba Liberal Mont-Saint-Bruno—L’Acadie, QC
Yes, I do. Thank you.
My question is for all the witnesses. Since we don't have a lot of time, I'd appreciate it if you could each take no more than a minute to answer.
In your view, what kind of partnerships could the Department of Canadian Heritage establish with the academic, legal, IT and cultural communities in an effort to control the impacts of AI?
Full professor, Holder of the UNESCO Chair on the diversity of cultural expressions, As an Individual
Do you want us to take turns answering?
Full professor, Holder of the UNESCO Chair on the diversity of cultural expressions, As an Individual
First, the fact that you are listening to researchers like us is extremely important, and we appreciate it.
Right now, the UNESCO chair on the diversity of cultural expressions is carrying out a study on behalf of Quebec's culture and communications department. We were asked to survey artists and professionals in the cultural sector, in order to document what they need in terms of supports. In other words, what do they need to help them adapt to AI and leverage the technology in a way that best suits them? The idea is also to examine which types of policies would support them in that learning process in using AI.
I think that's a very good thing to do. We will be releasing our findings soon, and I hope they will guide jurisdictions in rolling out new public policies to help artists and professionals in the cultural sector strengthen those skills.
That's one way.
Liberal
Bienvenu-Olivier Ntumba Liberal Mont-Saint-Bruno—L’Acadie, QC
Did you have anything to add, Ms. Mochama?
Communications Director, PressForward
I think we need everybody at the table of the information ecosystem, because it's very clear that it's fractured in many different directions.
I think what we're doing repeatedly, as I think Mr. Geist spoke to at the top of his speech, is that we respond to each new technology as if it's a brand new crisis and needs to be legislated piecemeal. Sometimes that has worked and sometimes that hasn't worked, but what is clear is that it has led to a fracturing of our information ecosystem, and we need every player and everybody together.
Our news media publishers are very much concerned with the lack of accurate information and how it's not getting to Canadians. That's a problem both within our newsrooms and with how the audience understands it, but also within the overall pipeline that is built towards them. I think that requires everybody, so that when we talk about partnerships, we don't talk about just the news media publishers getting together. We bring together foundations, library systems and municipalities. We bring together big tech if they want to sit with us, but there's nothing compelling them to do so, even though we are the closest to the communities where they lie.
A teenager who looks up math answers on ChatGPT in class is residing in a classroom where there are serious deficits and information gaps, and I think that requires everybody: We have to think about who are the end users. What is the vision we want for them in terms of the information they get? Also, when we think of partnerships, who do we want holding the hand of that 16-year-old boy and making sure that he gets the right math answer and can replicate that information?
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I won't use the full two minutes, because I'd like us to have enough time to discuss the motion Mrs. Thomas is going to propose.
Mr. Geist, in the previous Parliament, we were on opposite sides of the debate when it came to bills C‑11 and C‑18. Today, again, we don't share the same view.
In the case of AI, I think the goal….
I still have a great deal of questions about all this. I still don't know whether regulations would be effective, given the breakneck speed at which the space develops. As my fellow member pointed out, the companies we are trying to regulate are bigger than some countries.
That makes me wonder how we make sure we don't drown in the ocean of largely U.S. culture. Can a carrot-only approach work, without the stick? In other words, can we use incentives? Can subsides or programs that support artists who use AI help? Do you have any thoughts on that?
Please keep your answer brief.
Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-Commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
I guess I'll say a couple of things.
It came towards the very end of my opening remarks. I don't want it to get lost. I think the value of what's often referred to as “public AI”, the notion that these large language models should not be the exclusive providence of these large tech companies and there is the ability to create large language models that better reflect some of the kinds of values that you're talking about and could be readily used by anyone...the way we ensure that we don't get lost is to show up.
The risk we face, I think, if we establish systems that say we want to erect large walls here because we're concerned about some of the potential negative impacts may, in some ways, accelerate some of those kinds of negative impacts. I think it's about showing up. I think, in response to that last question about who ought to be around, that's also part of the answer. We need to ensure this is a dialogue that is as broadly inclusive as possible.
One of the concerns I would have, quite frankly, is that the government, Minister Solomon, has set up this so-called sprint of 30 days of a public consultation, with 26 people on a strategy board that is not broadly inclusive and does not reflect many of the kinds of perspectives that we're talking about. If you don't establish systems and a consultative process that.... Frankly, this committee has done a better job of trying to bring in those perspectives than the Minister of AI has. That's a problem if what you want is outcomes that reflect all the kinds of perspectives that have been brought to bear over the last few weeks.
Liberal
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Thank you very much.
Thank you to our witnesses for being here.
I am going to take a step away from the agenda that we are currently dealing with and invite my colleagues to consider something different.
I wish to move a motion. There has been notice given. I move:
Given that, Through the Indigenous Art Centre, the federal government safeguards a collection of more than 5,000 Indigenous artworks of exceptional cultural and artistic value, with an estimated value exceeding $14 million, More than 130 artworks managed by the centre have gone missing, according to a troubling audit that highlights widespread mismanagement, weak oversight, and inadequate security The committee invite the following witnesses to testify before the committee: the director of the Indigenous Art Centre, for no less than two (2) hours, and the authors of the audit report prepared by the Audit and Assurance Services Branch of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada, for no less than two (2) hours, And that the committee report to the House its concerns with the audit report.
Thank you.
Liberal
David Myles Liberal Fredericton—Oromocto, NB
We're supportive of this study. We see it as being important for us to study here.
I have a small proposed amendment.
We propose to amend the motion by adding a final sentence that says, “and that, pursuant to Standing Order 109, the committee request that the government table a comprehensive response to the report”.