Evidence of meeting #26 for Canadian Heritage in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was journalists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
Thank you.
We'll now turn to questions from members, starting with Ms. Thomas for six minutes.
You have the floor.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Thank you.
Thank you to each of you for being here today.
Mr. Dhanraj, I'm curious about a document you talked about in your opening remarks, “Parameters for Political Guests”. Would you be willing to table that with the committee?
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Thank you very much. I appreciate it.
I want to get to the bottom of this. Can you talk about any pressure you experienced at the CBC to shape stories in a particular fashion?
Former Journalist, As an Individual
Sure, I can. I am here speaking out, and this is my story.
Over the past several days, and even when this story initially came out, other CBC employees, current and former, have come forward to me who are afraid to speak out publicly. They sent me some statements, and if I can, I'd like to read into the record some of what I have been getting from current and former employees.
This is from a current employee at the CBC: “I've been with CBC for 10 years, and I have witnessed and experienced multiple incidents of the misuse of taxpayer dollars, racism, favouritism, nepotism, sexual harassment and verbal abuse.” Then she goes on to outline specific examples.
The next individual is someone you would all know if I said their name. They left the CBC after a 10-year career. The end of their statement says, “Without exaggeration, I experienced toxicity every single day, and it was almost always from the same people. It was not subtle. It was not hidden. It was part of the daily reality of working there.” She goes on to say that she was set to interview Catherine Tait on air. “I introduced myself to her in the makeup room as the host. In front of others, she responded, ‘I didn't know I'd be interviewed by somebody who looks like she is 14.’ That moment stayed with me. It was dismissive, inappropriate and reflected a broader culture in which respect was not always equally extended to everyone.”
On Mr. Cochrane, this is from one of his former producers: “His toxic behaviour extended beyond editorial matters and was more often than not deeply hypocritical. While he publicly presented himself as a supporter of diversity, he actively undermined the contributions of colleagues who were minorities.”
This is from somebody who left the industry and had to go to another country: “After about a year of working there as an anchor”—this is in Vancouver—“I was suddenly removed from the anchor desk. I was told the decision was related to the colour of my skin, that as a white person, I did not fit the diversity targets they were trying to meet. No concerns about my performance had ever been raised. My concern was the system and the reasoning behind the decision. My frustration was never directed at the individual who stepped into the role.” She also said that she was forced to check a box if somebody of a diverse background appeared on the air, and she said that was concerning to her. “I believe it's important to include a broad range of voices and perspectives, but reducing interview subjects to a checkbox felt like an overly simplistic way of approaching something that deserves much more care and thought.”
I could go on. There are a number of these stories, and it is shocking. These people have been traumatized. They are scared to come out. They are scared of the professional repercussions. Management, like Andree Lau, Brodie Fenlon, Cathy Perry and Chris Carter, are concerned about protecting the reputation of the organization as opposed to dealing with these issues when it comes to employees.
Conservative
Former Journalist, As an Individual
I finished at Global in 2020 or 2021, I think. It's in the bio I provided.
Former Journalist, As an Individual
I then came to Ottawa as a parliamentary reporter. I flew around with the prime minister. I covered Parliament Hill. Then I went back to Toronto. I was on Marketplace. I covered the Queen's funeral.
Then I got my own show, and I thought I'd have some say in how that show went. This is a picture of the folks we had on the intersection panel. We have here one with Rahim Mohamed and Rachel Gilmore. I don't know if you can get two other people who are as far apart on the ideological spectrum as that. There's also Sheila Copps, Brian Lilley and Fae Johnstone.
We were having the Canadian conversation, and this panel was cancelled. You also have issues of pay equity when it comes to all of these folks.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Obviously your point was to create a panel that was full of diversity. It was not just in skin colour, ethnicity or religious background. You wanted diversity of thought.
Conservative
Rachael Thomas Conservative Lethbridge, AB
Were you given the journalistic freedom to move forward and do that, for the sake of the Canadian public?
Former Journalist, As an Individual
No. The issue became the panellists. Power & Politics gave us a list of 43 or 45 people, saying not to go near these people. Some of these folks were reporters, like Robert Benzie. If there's a story breaking at Queen's Park and we're on at seven o'clock, we should be able to call somebody who covers Queen's Park and talk to them. There were continued hurdles and roadblocks set up to have a certain group of folks in Ottawa in control of who was allowed on programs. Mine was a particular concern.
There were repeated episodes of Conservatives being blocked. I have the Gchats right here. I said, in terms of getting folks on, that we needed to have balance. It was not about just having a show with Conservatives or just with Liberals. If Power & Politics is going to have Liberal talking points on all the time, we should have balance as a network.
I told Brodie Fenlon and Andree Lau repeatedly that we are in contravention of section 11 the Broadcasting Act if we are not providing equitable time for all perspectives. I didn't want to flood the show with Conservatives, but I did want to have balance.
I can talk to my legal team, because some of this is before the Human Rights Commission in terms of how it happened, but there were repeated attempts, over and over again.... At one point, I heard that maybe I could have NDP folks on, but Conservatives were a no. It should blow the Canadian public's mind that this was the stuff that was going on.
Liberal
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you all for those opening remarks.
My first question is for Ms. Cleugh and Mr. Bartel.
First, it's a pleasure to meet you both. Ms. Royer speaks very fondly of you.
I'd like to focus on a highlight of your opening remarks. You noted a lack of support. I'm quoting this because I thought it was interesting and well said. You said, “Grant opportunities are often like fitting a square peg into a round hole.”
From your experience in building a new outlet, what are the biggest barriers facing independent journalism start-ups in Canada? What do you believe would best help address those barriers?
Co-Founder, Freshet News
We're journalists and we've run head-on into some of the challenges to creating a viable business and some of the costs of that. The local journalism initiative has stepped up with some funding for us. That helps cover some wages for our crew, but it doesn't deal with the need to hire someone who can sell ads. We don't know how to do that. We shouldn't be doing that; we're journalists. We want to maintain a separation between the ad side and the journalism side.
Luckily, we have found some people who are willing to help us off the side of their desks to get us going. To go forward and to ramp up, we have to become professional at every level of this. Some of that infrastructure support is critical to this.
We ran headlong into just how expensive some of these things are, like software licences to allow us to produce a newspaper, web hosting fees and insurance. All of these things that we were completely oblivious to in our role in the newsroom have come home to roost. Luckily, our crowdfunding gave us a good foundation to start tackling some of these things.
As we move forward, becoming a viable business will mean backfilling a lot of those things with support.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Over the past few years we've certainly seen a significant number of community newspapers close or reduce their reporting capacity. You highlighted this in your opening remarks.
From your perspective, as a long-time local journalist reporter, could you speak to what happens to community accountability and civic engagement when local news coverage disappears? I believe you highlighted that it was dangerous to local democracy, but I'm keen to see you expand on that, if possible.
Co-Founder, Freshet News
We became a news desert. We have news deserts and news-poor jurisdictions. Glacier Media closing in the middle of the federal election was quite bad. We've had people pretending to be reporters sit at the media desk at council meetings. They're reporting when we're not. That's dangerous.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
That's perfect. Thank you.
Ms. Carrero, the Association des radiodiffuseurs communautaires du Québec, or ARCQ, represents 37 different local radio stations. As you are no doubt aware, many community stations rely on volunteers and limited funding.
In your opinion, what are the biggest operational challenges facing community radio today? I'm thinking, for example, of declining advertising revenue or digital disruption caused by foreign platforms.
Executive Director, Association des radiodiffuseurs communautaires du Québec
You clearly identified the challenges.
First, volunteers actually run all the operations, which isn't ideal. These volunteers invest their time and energy in keeping these radio stations alive. However, any business based solely on this type of model is difficult to sustain over the years. Yet it does happen. The stations manage to make it through. Operational funding is obviously the key. It's really necessary, and it's lacking.
You then talked about advertising revenue. As I and a number of my colleagues have said, we lack advertising revenue. The revenue has gone to foreign platforms. It would be good to have a clear directive from the government. As I said, radio stations could then contribute to the government's message.
You also talked about the digital transition. Indeed, this other factor poses a major challenge. I would say that the stations are community hubs that provide broadcasts on the FM band but also on the web. You can listen to them. There are podcasts, news programs and so on. They really do provide a full range of media. However, we need to help them make this digital shift. The shift is sometimes more difficult, depending on the station, of course.
Liberal
Fares Al Soud Liberal Mississauga Centre, ON
Mr. Shoan, Canada's broadcasting and media regulatory framework was designed at a time when traditional television and radio dominated the landscape. Given the rapid rise of global streaming platforms and digital media companies, do you believe Canada's existing regulatory tools are still adequate for protecting Canadian journalism and cultural sovereignty in the digital age?
Executive Director, Friends of Canadian Media
I believe the tools are there. Perhaps the CRTC has been a bit slow in taking action. The CRTC has done some good things, and certainly the Government of Canada has done some good things.
The Online Streaming Act and the Online News Act have been enormously helpful. The tax credit and the local journalism initiative have been helpful.
The CRTC made a very important decision last year to ask streamers to contribute a base contribution of 1.5% of their annual revenues to support local news. That's being challenged in court right now, but we feel confident it will go the CRTC's way.
Those are all important steps, but more needs to be done, especially given the Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives' conclusion that a significant portion of the Canadian population—I believe it's 2.5%—has no access to local news or has access to only one local news outlet. That's a problem that needs to be corrected.
The tools are there, and the regulator needs to be encouraged to use them.
Liberal
Bloc
Martin Champoux Bloc Drummond, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses. We have a wonderful group of witnesses here today. I think that this speaks to the importance of the topic covered in this study.
However, before speaking to these witnesses, I would like to move a motion. I've discussed it with some committee members. I'll read it. I would like us to debate it at the end of this meeting. That way, we won't interrupt the period for asking witnesses questions. The motion concerns Radio‑Canada's decision to make Réseau de l'information, or RDI, programming available on Amazon's Prime Video platform. We find that this decision warrants an explanation and certainly a challenge.
The motion is as follows:
That, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee invite the CEO of CBC/Radio‑Canada, Marie‑Philippe Bouchard, to appear before the committee for a minimum of two (2) hours to explain the decision to make ICI‑RDI's programming available on the Prime Video platform, owned by the American multinational Amazon, even before it is made available to Quebeckers and francophones in Canada on Tou.tv or on a Canadian‑owned platform.
The motion is available in English and French for the committee members. As requested earlier, I would like us to set aside time at the end of today's meeting to discuss the motion and to explain the spirit of the Bloc Québécois' proposal.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Lisa Hepfner
I think that everyone agrees. The motion is placed on notice. Thank you.