Canadian Heritage Committee on April 16th, 2026

[Éric-Pierre Champagne]

With all respect for my colleagues in Radio-Canada, whom I greatly admire—

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Please reply quickly.

[Éric-Pierre Champagne]

—I don't think that Radio-Canada should touch those $7 million, considering the challenges in the entire Canadian industry. It's a pity, really.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

Mr. Myles, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[David Myles, Liberal, Fredericton—Oromocto, NB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

My thanks to everyone here today.

I agree with Mr. Généreux. This is still a major craft. Journalists still have standards, I believe. However, under pressure from the big digital platforms and their algorithms that promote the most polarizing things, I am wondering whether sometimes the searching that members of the public do leads to more and more of those things being published for the public as a result. So, what is the challenge today, for a journalist who lives by the standards, when faced with the success of the algorithms that cause polarizing material to be published?

My question is for Mr. Lamoureux and Ms. Villalba.

[Samuel Lamoureux]

I feel that there is a lot of debate on public funding. In my view, the role of the government is not to keep funding the media for ever and ever. One of its main roles, however, is to put an end to the asymmetry in certain markets. At the moment, there's a lot of asymmetry in some markets.

Google has developed a vertical monopoly in digital advertising in Canada. I read where the monopoly was compared to a major bank also owning the Toronto Stock Exchange. Imagine if a private company issued shares and also owned the platform on which those shares were traded. Think of the extent to which that could cause asymmetry and conflicts of interest in the way Canada's economy operates. Surely, regulation would automatically ensue.

In terms of digital advertising, Google controls the advertising industry and the platform on which the advertising appears, as well as controlling Android and Google Chrome, actually. It's a disaster. It stifles innovation and it affects both consumers and the media. If this were not all digital, the government would have become involved already. But we seem to be saying, oh, it's digital, oh, it's special, it's new, and so on. But if it was a company that was not digital, regulations would be in place already.

The same goes for Facebook, whose monopoly is horizontal. Those are the issues that I see as the really major ones that need to be addressed. These informational asymmetries must be stopped. It's not about the funding; it's about the asymmetry.

[Éric-Pierre Champagne]

Allow me to intervene. I completely support my colleague. I would like to add something that is often forgotten. In Quebec, all media are showing record levels of audience and readership. That is unprecedented and a little shocking. Despite the financial crisis, media outlets have never had so many readers. The reason for the financial crisis is in the asymmetry that Mr. Lamoureux pointed out. As I was saying earlier, the model is literally broken. I know of no industry that could survive in that climate. If this were not about the digital world, if it was a bank, for example, the government would have intervened a long time ago to prevent such a monopoly.

[David Myles, Liberal, Fredericton—Oromocto, NB]

Do you think that could have an effect on journalism itself?

[Éric-Pierre Champagne]

Do you mean on the quality of journalism?

[David Myles, Liberal, Fredericton—Oromocto, NB]

Yes.

[Éric-Pierre Champagne]

I would say that, despite everything, the resilience is to be admired. Very good journalism is being done, but it is forgotten. People are always criticizing journalism. Yes, too much of our media is opinion. But investigative work and reportage are being done. We can't forget that because Quebec and Canada have good journalists and good media.

[David Myles, Liberal, Fredericton—Oromocto, NB]

I have a quick question for Mr. Menzies.

When you speak about consumer-driven subsidization, I wonder if you wouldn't run into the same problem by then having to qualify certain journalistic organizations as “qualified journalistic organizations”. Would you not run into the same perception of interference or relationship?

[Peter Menzies]

You wouldn't if the government got out of the business of doing that. If the industry were smart enough—and it hasn't shown that it is to date—all the sectors, the broadcasting sector and the print sector, would form a national association, and they would decide who is a journalist in the same fashion that medical societies decide who is a doctor and legal societies decide who is a lawyer. They would decide, because the government has absolutely no business, through whatever means, deciding what a journalist is.

Industry and the government could get themselves out of that problem by having a proper national organization, and they could fight it out there. You wouldn't have to get involved. You'd just say, “Okay, where's your list?”

[David Myles, Liberal, Fredericton—Oromocto, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

The floor now goes to Mr. Champoux, for two and a half minutes.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Villalba and Mr. Lamoureux, in your opening statement, you brought up the fact that independent journalists are actually freelancers who have no access to government assistance, such as the Canadian journalism labour tax credit. We are actually trying to extend that to electronic media, to radio and television stations, all of whom are looking for it. You also have no access to various forms of assistance available to organized newsrooms. You are independent journalists. You have no assistance. You do not even have a tax credit for your work.

You spoke earlier about getting status as artists under the Status of the Artist Act. You are not looking for the benefits, just the same tax status. What specifically are you requesting that would help you in your work and let you earn a little more than minimum wage?

[Léa Villalba]

At the Association des journalistes indépendants du Québec, we are certainly trying to establish a fee schedule. The Union des Artistes has much the same idea: to force the media to pay us decently. As freelancers, of course, we work with professional media, so we are recognized as journalists. Many are members of the Fédération professionnelle des journalistes du Québec, because we are journalists of the same standing. Of course, it is easy for a media organization to pay less for freelance work. We are seen as cheap labour, in a way. So I feel that a minimum level of salary, corresponding of course to the company's circulation and budget and to the work that needs to be done, could still help freelancers.

Do you have any other ideas, Mr. Lamoureux?

[Samuel Lamoureux]

I want to talk about employment insurance for independent workers. I know that it's perhaps not quite in line with the committee's study, but it's another major issue in Canada.

Can independent workers have access to decent employment insurance? I once read some articles on the #PasSansFilet movement, decrying the fact that a lot of independent workers were not eligible for employment insurance. It's worth taking a look, I'd say.

[Martin Champoux, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

You were talking earlier about eligibility for funds, for subsidies and for assistance being restricted to media companies meeting certain criteria, such as membership in the Quebec Media Council, for example. The Online News Act has that requirement.

In terms of Google's $100 million fund that we talked about earlier and the $7 million that goes to Radio-Canada that we are questioning, there is also a membership requirement, not necessarily in the Quebec Media Council, and a requirement to meet fundamental criteria in the principles of journalism.

Mr. Champagne, do you agree with the FPJQ suggesting that a specific status, like that of an artist, be granted to independent journalists? Do you agree with them organizing to have fee schedules established so that the media hiring them could not go below the rock-bottom price, if you will?

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

You can answer the question, but quickly, please. Thank you.

[Éric-Pierre Champagne]

It is something we could look at. We are open to the idea. We understand that there are all kinds of issues and I fully understand the freelancers' reality.

[The Chair, Liberal, Lisa Hepfner]

You did that very well. Thank you.

Mr. Diotte, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Kerry Diotte, Conservative, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thanks, Madam Chair.

Mr. Menzies, you probably recall that we worked together at the Calgary Sun back in the day. You've had a long and storied career in journalism and with the CRTC. As you know, and as everybody in Canada knows, the CBC gets almost $1.4 billion from the Liberal government. How on earth can a media entity remain objective in its coverage, given that huge sum of money?

[Peter Menzies]

Thanks, Mr. Diotte. I remember, and I won't tell if you won't tell.

How do they remain objective? I think that's a big challenge. I think it's an enormous challenge. It's a challenge for public broadcasters everywhere. The best way for it not to get into the situation the CBC was in a year and a half ago, when it had roughly 40% of Canadians comfortable with defunding it, is to be as good as possible at the job.

The firewalls that are necessary.... You can get into all sorts of structural things, but it really just becomes a matter of self-awareness in a newsroom and aspiring to the principle of objectivity, which I fear has been abandoned by journalists in recent years. It's part of the woke movement that objectivity is impossible and what matters is the narrative. Until journalism itself gets back to aspiring to objectivity, as it did for about 100 years, I don't think there's any hope that money won't distort the equation.

[Kerry Diotte, Conservative, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Like me, you watch the media closely. Do you think the CBC is biased in favour of the Liberal government and against Conservatives?